The Scots Numpty Party (SNP) has managed to defeat the attempts of the unionists who deliberately devised the electoral system to thwart single party government (and hence leave independence off the practical political agenda) and get a majority in Scotland. The SNP leader Alex Salmond can now call a referendum on independence . However, to have a referendum which is binding, the SNP needs the sanction of the UK Parliament. From his public comments David Cameron appears to accept that such a referendum would be binding because he has stated since this SNP victory that if a referendum was held he would campaign for a NO.
Whether or not Scotland would vote for independence is debatable. Polls consistently show a majority against, although there are always a substantial number of “don’t knows”. In a referendum held only in Scotland with the YES campaign headed by Salmond and the NO campaign led by Scottish non-entities or people from outside of Scotland such as Cameron, it is possible that a Yes result might be obtained.
I have no visceral objection to Scots independence, but the strongest objection to Scotland walking away from the Union without taking full responsibility for themselves and leaving the English to pick up the financial mess which a mixture of regular English subsidy of Scotland and the massive costs of the rescuing the Scottish banks RBS and HBOS has created. To this end the conditions Cameron should lay down for Scottish independence are these :
1. Scotland to take a share of the UK National debt (excluding the costs involved in supporting Scottish banks and building societies, mainly the RBS and HBOS banks) proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland. The servicing of this debt to be the first charge on Scotland’s public financing.
2. Scotland to pay for the past and future costs of bailing out Scottish banks and building societies.
3. The huge English subsidies to Scotland to cease immediately on a Yes vote being achieved.
4. All English public sector jobs which have been exported to Scotland to be brought back to England. This would include not merely traditional civil service posts, but facilities such as those supporting UK nuclear submarines.
5. Scotland to launch its own currency or join the Euro. If they remain tied to the pound they would have no true independence and practically be dependent on England for the macro management of their economy.
6. The division of the oil and gas fields to be made on the basis of extending a line at the angle of the coastline on the England-Scotland border. This is in accordance with the UN convention on the Law of the Sea article 7 - see http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf.
This would give England a substantial proportion of the oil and even more of the gas fields.
7. Scotland to be gifted any state owned building in Scotland but to have no claim on publicly owned facilities in the remainder of the UK.
8. Nuclear submarines and any other fundamentally important military equipment to
be moved to England
9. All military research to be moved to England.
10. All future UK defence expenditure to be made in the remainder of the UK.
11. Scotland to form its own armed forces. These will have to be capable of not only defending Scottish land but also of policing Scottish territorial waters.
12. Scotland to be gifted all military establishments in Scotland , but Scotland to have no claim on military establishments elsewhere in the UK or abroad.
13. Military equipment. Scotland to be gifted existing equipment sufficient to equip whatever forces Scotland forms provided this equipment does not exceed what is available to similar UK forces.
14. All publicly funded non-military research in Scotland to be moved to the remainder of the UK.
15. Scotland to be responsible for the payment of all public sector pensions earned in Scotland before independence.
16. Scotland to be responsible for a share proportionate to the percentage of the
UK population in Scotland of EU related pension earned before independence.
17. Scotland to be responsible for the financing all government contracts relating to
building, goods and services supplied in Scotland which were entered into before
independence.
18. Property relating to UK diplomatic missions to remain the property of the remainder of the UK.
19. Scotland to be responsible for a share of diplomatic pensions earned before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland.
20. Scotland to be responsible for a share of any public service pensions other
than those related to the diplomatic corps which is earned abroad before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland.
21. Immigration to Scotland from outside the EU and for any future new EU members to be controlled on the same basis as the UK controls immigration.
22. Scotland to make its own application for EU membership without support from the Westminster government.
23. If the remainder of the UK or England alone leaves the EU, the following may be put in place:
a) border controls between Scotland and the remainder of the UK
b) Scotland to be treated as any other member of the EU would be treated
c) UK protectionist barriers to Scotland
d) an end to free movement from Scotland to the remainder of the UK
e)an end to Scots citizens enjoying the benefits of the UK Welfare State
24. If Scotland is unable to gain EU membership, all of 23 may apply apart from (b).
Conditions 1-22 can be enforced while the UK without Scotland remains in the EU. If the UK without Scotland leaves the EU or England alone leaves the EU, then condition 22 is legal.
Scots will complain about not being given a share equivalent to their proportion of the UK
population of the material assets of the UK armed forces or of diplomatic assets abroad. However, it is not unreasonable to advantage the remainder of the UK because England has massively subsidised Scotland since the Union in 1707. The subsidy began with the Act of Union, viz:
“Clause IX. THAT whenever the sum of One million nine hundred ninety seven thousand seven hundred and sixty three pounds eight shillings and four pence half penny, shall be enacted by the Parliament of Great Britain to be raised in that part of the United Kingdom now called England, on Land and other Things usually charged in Acts of Parliament there, for granting an Aid to the Crown by a Land Tax; that part of the United Kingdom now called Scotland, shall be charged by the same Act, with a further Sum of forty-eight
thousand Pounds, free of all Charges, as the Quota of Scotland, to such Tax, and to proportionably for any greater or lesser Sum raised in England by any Tax on Land, and other Things usually charged together with the Land; and that such Quota for Scotland, in the Cases aforesaid, be raised and collected in the same Manner as the Cess now is in Scotland, but subject to such Regulations in the manner of collecting, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain.” Act of Union (http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/the-act-of-union-1707/)
The population of England was five times that of Scotland in 1707. Had Scotland paid the tax listed in Clause IX at the same rate as England they would have paid £400,000.
Instead they were required to pay only £48,000, roughly a ninth of the pro rata sum.
As for the oil and gas revenues, a substantial part of that has come from oil and gas English waters. Moreover, oil revenues have only been flowing for around thirty years and Scotland was being subsidised by England for the better part of three centuries before that. Nor is it true that oil and gas revenues have been consistently high because the oil and gas price was very low for a decade or more. In most years since 1980 Scotland would not have been contributing more to the UK Treasury than they took out even if ALL the oil and gas tax was allocated to them.
If the Scots wished to start claiming they should be compensated for things such as the UK military expenditure , the retort would be all right we will let you have that, but in return we will expect you to repay all the subsidies Scotland has received since the Union began.
It is very improbable that Scotland would vote for independence on the terms I have outlined, but anything less would mean that England was taken for a ride and Scotland allowed to evade their responsibilities. There is a very real danger that Cameron would pander to the Scots and let them escape these obligations. That is why English campaigners should begin now to press politicians to make sure the Scots are not allowed an easy ride to independence at England’s expense.
go for it, if it gets rid of you obnoquios English thieving b a s t a r d s.
We have been taking care of scotland for far too long now. It is time to let these lazy sponging cunts go.
Ahahahahahaha!!
Suck my hairy Scottish cheese factory you muppet!!!
Ah, a Scotch brain at full intellectual stretch I see…
Nope, simply treating the comment with the contempt it deserves.
Then we will, you illiterate inbred savages.
England might be a lot better off without Scotland. But what happens to Northern Ireland? Who gets stuck with it?
Dividing the army should be easy enough: Scotland gets the Scottish regiments, Borderers, Highlanders, Blackwatch etc. Dividing the airforce and navy is quite a bit more difficult. In addition Scottish “nationals”serving in the residual English forces would need to exchanged with English people serving in Scottish forces.
Also note: the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement. If Scotland became independent within the EU there would not be open borders between the two.
The Navy is England’s. the Scots have no claim on it. History backs me on this claim. The Scottish Navy such as it was disbanded, the English Royal Navy simply took over in the role, it’s why the RN flag is the White Ensign, essentially a Cross of Saint George.
I think England has claim to around 2-10% of the Oil revenues in the North Sea. But the Gas is mostly yours.
Dear sir I would like to point something out to you firstly you say england bailed out Scottish banks but I am afraid to say as a English born Professor of economics that your arguments are in fact unfounded. Firstly it is a myth English tax payers subsidies Scotland england gets billions more than Scotland gets secondly you have forgotten that england receives direct subsidies out of Scottish oil and whiskey revenues many of my learned friends take only in to account Scottish income tax and council tax as to considering how much Scotland pays to the uk but in order to know the truth you must look at the whole picture. When you take into account all of Scotland’s revenue collected by the uk inclusive of oil whiskey, income tax, Corporation tax, Vat, Council tax, Landfill Tax, National insurance etc you will actually find Scotland is paying more to the uk than it gets and in fact Scotland has never received any of there oil revenues where as england has received extra funding from Scottish Oil funds. In Fact Scottish oil funds will be worth a minimum of around 3000 Billion pounds over the next thirty years which they will never receive. Further to this English banks were also bailed out including Halifax the banking crisis was also started in england with northern rock. We must not forget that Scotland has paid her way in tax ever since it came in to the union. The problem england has is that at current we do not spend money wisely here we throw huge sums in to quangos which frankly are not needed if we got rid of these quangos we could in fact survive independence. Secondly you should consider that London receives more public expenditure in the uk than any other part of the uk. Ireland also gets more than Scotland and in terms of population it is in fact smaller. It is in fact a myth that Scotland does not pay its way in fact it has among the highest council tax rates in the uk and the highest business rates in the uk. The problem is it is a myth Scotland gets English money and is in fact more often than not the other way round as huge portions of Scottish oil whiskey and corporation tax is spent in England. in fact the treasury are already aware of the fact that Scotland pays its own way and this is demonstrated by the granting of tax raising power to Scotland in the new Scotland bill in which Scotland government will raise a third off its budget using this rate itself for its own budget using the Scottish income tax rate of 10p without having to raise income tax. This means if Scotland where to have full fiscal autonomy they would in fact be billions and billions of pounds better of even being able to manage to have half the size of the uk armed forces for only around 3-4% of its gdp. So in fact if Scotland did get independence they would in fact be better off and england would struggle as would northern Ireland without the Scottish tax coming into the treasury as usually vast sums of that tax is diverted elsewhere. I can say this both as an economist and former treasury advisor. I hope Scots continue to believe Scottish unionist scare mongering that Scotland cannot survive independence if they dont continue to believe it england will struggle to cope with the loss of Scottish tax revenue!
Yours truly
Professor MCKie
English Economist
‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has, and with similar attempts to interfere in its sovereign taxation affairs. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.
It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:
a) new oil reserves may be discovered
b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves
c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game
d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values
e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?
e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.
Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.
Assuming that Scotland does use the euro, how long will its political independence last? There is an increasing level of opinion that believes that a political union is required to solve the problems of the eurozone.
“headquartered in Edinburgh”
And regulated in London.
“the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds”
Borrowed money and bond issues. The Government is in debt, it doesn’t have stacks of taxpayer funds lying around to bail banks out.
‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has, and with similar attempts to interfere in its sovereign taxation affairs. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.
It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:
a) new oil reserves may be discovered
b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves
c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game
d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values
e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?
e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.
Assuming that Scotland does use the euro, how long will its political independence last? There is an increasing level of opinion that believes that a political union is required to solve the problems of the eurozone.
Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.
Which chair of economics do you hold?
I do not claim to be an economist, I simply do not believe ‘The Professor’ to be one either.
To Robert Knight:
HSBC, Barclays and Lloyds TSB (pre-HBOS) are also regulated in London and did not require a government bail-out. Irish, Icelandic and Greek banks, and Bank or America are not regulated in London but did require bailouts. It will be intesting to see the state of the german Landsbanken once that is finally revealed. The reply was due to ‘The Professor’s’ statement that The Halifax was an english bank, when the institution taken over by Lloyds TSB was HBOS, i.e. Halifax Bank of Scotland.
Re: Taxpayer funds. Apologies, you are correct. What I should have put is that UK tax receipts will be used to pay interest on the funds borrowed to bail out the banks and that, hopefully, the eventual sale of the holdings in them will cover the cost of the funds borrowed. Perhaps I could also have mentioned that due to these borrowings, the cutbacks being made to services at a local an national level are the result in an attempt to reduce the overall level of borrowing by the UK.
Professor MCKie,
With spelling and grammar that bad you are neither English nor a Professor.
Christ, How many ‘in facts’ in that!!!
I don’t trust you mate Economists are usually instant experts after the stable door has bolted.
A professor who Hardly uses full stops and no commas? A professor who says nothing but in fact in fact it’s a fact in fact it is a matter of fact in fact that facts are facts when you facilitate your factuality….. What a load of rubbish.
‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, this led to the newly-named Lloyds Group requiring UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.
It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:
a) new oil reserves may be discovered
b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves
c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game
d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values
e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?
e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.
Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.
Just want to clarify that RBS and a few other banks are actually run by National Westminster Bank.
No Jock, it is part of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc which was formed after the hostile takeover of NatWest by RBS.
No there not I worked for RBS they bought Nat west see further comment idiot…
You lot are priceless, the banks HBOS/RBS are Scottish when they are doing well. They’re London run and regulated now they’ve f**d everything up. I used to work for RBS it’s a Scottish bank, it has an office in Edinburgh with thousands of people working in it, and it’s the HEAD office. Check it out I’m not making this up.
Source :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/7121112/RBS-is-considering-sale-of-flagship-headquarters-Gogarburn.html
I believe that Scotland is well able to govern itself; as well as take care of her citizens, and defend her borders.
I believe Scotland would be much better off, in general terms, without the need to be part of the UK or the EU.
The EU will continue to take ever more from Scotland, and increase its control over its member states.
I hope that someday soon, Scotland becomes a free and independent country. The successful transition to independence will demonstrate to other EU member states that it is possible (and preferable) to live free and by ones own dictates.
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Our gvt in london wont stand in way of a vote in Scotland.but we English must ask ourselves why our gvt will fight to save the union by every fibre !snp have only asked for more powers to raise money in Scotland (so that it dispells the myth we sub them),but our gvt are only giving them more borrowing powers!thats not scots fault!
And yes the scots will take part of uk debt.and why london had papers released claiming rights to seabed around scotland on the same day the scots parliament was reopened!what are we english really scared of.
As a member of the Scottish National Party, I support independence for Scotland. However, this would also mean independence for England, and I support that too. In effect, the present Union is a sort of scaled-down empire, with all the disadvantages, for ordinary people, that are usually associated with empires, such as endless wars.
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I would be sad for our special union to be dissolved, we would have been one nation if not for the Romans putting up that wall! Ireland got rid of one union and joined a destructive nation hood EU union! Scotland will do the same! Seems silly if that’s the plan. What we have been through and our close heritage we should be coming closer together and not apart. What Irony is that again its an outsider or not an ethnic Scot who leads the SNP Alex Salmond he’s of mixed Mongolian and Jewish gipsy heritage! You wont see that on the news and I doubt most Scots know it either.Just like several other jumped up weasels who want to destroy something perfectly good for their own agenda.
Can you say that you are of pure blood? How ridiculous, no one in Scotland or England, or Wales even are descended from indigenous Scots, English or Welsh.
But why did the Romans erect walls? They couldn’t control people fighting for their very freedom. It shames me that we were sold out by landlords and merchants for their own ends.
Personally I have never met an ethnic Scot and I’ve lived all my years in Scotland. I have English blood in my ancestry and it may as well be Turkish or Japanese or whatever, it doesn’t change who I am or what I believe in.
Salmond was born in Linlithgow, in West Lothian, Scotland to Robert Fyfe Findlay Salmond and Mary Stewart Salmond (née Milne). He is the First Minister in Scotland and will be the First Prime Minister of an independent Scotland for over 300 years.
after independece comes, i see engerlund in a sorry state of affairs. basically the uk goverment know that and are shi**ing themselves. if ur average scot were to see these boards it would only make them more determined. the english are gonna play hard ball. we can as well. id cut of all oil and power supplies. id give faslane to the russians, also give them airbases. id lower corporation tax to an extent that companies would flood up here.
One thing to note though, if England (and Wales and Northern Ireland) constantly subsidise Scotland, why are Westminster so afraid of Scottish succession? This has never really been answered. David Cameron et al only want to keep the Union together so they personally have more power – that’s all people in their positions care about…
All the chat of “Scotland couldn’t have handled the recession etc” are a complete waste of time. There is no way of proving this either way so it’s a desperate fight for a lost cause and there will be many more scaremongering tactics from the Unionists over the next 3 / 4 years.
The real people losing out in this are English people not based in London. They have no representation.
Remember though: a positive election campaign will beat a negative one any day.
God I just want all those moaning Scots to fuck off back home, they are a defeated small pathetic nation who nobody cares about.Let them have true independence with no money,jobs or support from England and watch them sink into the North Sea.The only place there are more chips than in their fat lazy stomachs is on their shoulders. Without doubt the most racist and depressing country I have ever had the misfortune to visit, so please,please just fuck off.
You must have a very sad and lonely life…. I feel sorry for you really! All i can see on this site is moaning racist english people!!! Strange isn’t it….lol
Ah, another Scotch brain at full intellectual stretch …
Robert Henderson-Scotch is something you drink!!! You English twat…..
Scotch is also something you English twats and Westminster have been creaming the tax from for far to long!!! Tosser….
So there you have it: there’s only two types of people William can’t stand – racists, and those stupid, greasy, pathetic, lazy, subsidy-junkie Scots.
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I live in Edinburgh (I’m not Scottish though) and have neve experience any problems with xenophobia… but then I don’t frequent the housing schemes and council estates where the great unwashed ignorant live.
I do however think a referendum will be a good thing, and the sooner the better. If Scotland goes separate, then great. And when everyone in Scotlands live change in absolutely no way whatsoever they may possibly realise that it had nothing to do with the UK, that is just life, and that it is what YOU make of it. It is far too easy to blame other people for your own crappy lives (everyone one around the world does this, i’m not picking on anyone here). Also, we will of course see a North South divide become apparent within Scotland, the north of Scotland hate the ‘poofters’ down in the south and don’t even consider them real Scots.
If Scotland does not separate then hopefully the minority will just shut the fu¢k up once and for all.
Now, I said I wasn’t scottish, but I didn’t say where I was from. The reason for this (and my Scottish wife has the same beliefs as me on this) is that what is the point in patriotism? You did not in any way have any say in where you were going to be born. Chance is the only thing you can be proud of!
It’s like Bill Hicks said. get rid of flags with stars and stripes and have pictures of our parents fu¢king. Cos that is what it comes down to at the end of the day. Your parents fu¢ked in a particular country and that somehow defines you for the rest of your life.
Well I for one am myself first and foremost, where I was born is irrelevant.
To Robert Henderson: Your list points are succintly and worth reading put but may I advise that starting off a post with “SNP (Scots Numpty Party)” rather serves to immediately alienate any folk like me who voted SNP at the recent elections but aren’t sure about independence.
The hardest thing about the debate leading to the referendum is going to trying to find balanced and rational takes on the question. don’t make it harder for people to read your arguments by
drpaul – Never underestimate the power of a satirical name. Little if anything is lost using it while much is gained. Imagine the Salmond’s rage if it gained currency.
Few thoroughly committed to the Scottish Numpty Party will ever be persuaded that independence would be the hideously reckless adventure that it is. Some, SNP voters such as yourself may be persuaded, but it is very improbable that you would make your decsion based on a satirical gibe. You will decide according to the facts which I have provided in depth on the blog.
Outside of the SNP, their opponents and the undecided voters will find Scotch Numpty Party amusing at worst and at best will see it as succinctly summarising what the SNP is, namely, a party whose only raison d’etre is the chasing of a dream as misguided as the Darien fiasco.
robert henderson = ball bag
A Scotch brain at full pelt….
Robert and his mates come from Angerland they are Angerlish. It is their belief that they can put down any race other than those who reside in Angerland.
I have a Scottish brain Robert and having read your article I was about to pick the numerous holes in it.
However, from the “quality” of the responses and the attitude shown by you and your fellow deluded on here it is clearly not worth it. You and many on here are a disgrace and I am sad that people like you taint the good people of England.
Just to help you though: if Scotland chooses independence, we are not leaving the UK, we are ending it. It no longer exists as a legal entity. You might want to change the wording therefore in the diatribe you wrote above.
James S
Another Scotch brain over-extending itself….
Ah,
another insult.
Nice.
I have frequented many websites since the SNP won on May 5th having been a staunch “Unionist” all of my life. I tasked myself with finding what is truth and what is dogma on both sides of the debate.
One of them is Newsnet, a site much like this, but where any “anti-English” nonsense is put down and frankly pitied. The vast majority are well-educated with much to offer. The farnkly vile language and atitude on here from your fellow Engs is shameful for what appears to, on the outside at least, be a similar and worthwhile source of an alternative opinion. These “numpties” as you call them seem far wiser and far nicer than the sad excuses for human beings I see on here.
Maybe you should grow up a bit before entering into debate that has significance for all of us.
James S
On the subject of Scotland’s oil, you are ignoring the new oil fields off the north west coast of Scotland which are not yet on stream. The Foinaven and the Shehalion fields are bigger that all of the North sea reserves put together. Goodbye the sponging English Benefit scroungers
Don’t lower yourself to insults friend. Although you are correct in principle. Employment is higher in Scotland than England and unemployment is lower. Seems strange why the Scots are called “doleys” and “scroungers” by the English media and the lesser contributors on sites like these when the reverse is true and easily identifiable.
Regarding North Sea oil, there is at least another 40 years of substantial production and possibly many more with the new technologies coming onstream, able to develop fields that are harder to get to. Peak oil seems to have passed and those nations with oil will have a far greater say in the world in the coming decades than those without.
Remember, making claims of reduced oil receipts etc simply serves to scare the undecided in Scotland so Westminster can keep their hands on it for longer. The fact it has little or no basis seems to be conveniently lost by our Southern friends, presumably for reasons consistent with the negative sentiment on here. With oil prices expecting to increase markedly over the next half century due to increasing global demand, our children and grandchildren should be fine without the sinkhole of Westminster.
Remember, we’ll get approximately 10% of everything that is owned by the UK which, according to those still with their heads in the sand, is worth more than the 10% of the UK debt we’ll be obliged to take with us. So oil, although very important, is not the be all and end all. 22% of all UK corporation tax receipts eminate from Scottish territory and those will no longer head for Westminster and disappear like they do now, they will be credited to a Scottish exchequor and be available to those who earn it rather than those who consume it in the South East.
The only reason Scotch employment is higher is because they use the vast English annual subsidy to maintain public sector jobs; that sustains what little private employment there is plus Gordon Brown allowed Salmond to defer his spending cuts for a year.
As for Scotland getting 10% of everything, the only thing they are likely to get 10% of is the UK national debt.
What “vast” annual subsidy?
Define.
The £1,600 per capita higher Treasury paymment to Scotland compared with England, the export of English jobs to Scotland, the disproportionately large number of public service jobs in Scotland (over 60% of the Scotch GDP comes ftrom this), the generally higher benefit payments in Scotland…. RH
Ah, the usual rhetoric.
A subsidy is when one receives more than one gives. You only mention spending.
You do not mention how much is given.
Interesting ploy Robert. Is this why the leader of the Conservatives in Scotland Annabel Goldie had to change her speech to the Conservative Party Conference on Tueday? Where she was due to be the first Unionist senior politician to admit on the big stage that the gravy train runs south? Why would she be so pressurised into changing her speech? Similar reason?
The government’s GERS report (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland), when comparing Total public sector revenue versus Total public sector expenditure, cites the following in terms of UK GDP:
2005/6 – Income 9.8%, expenditure 9.5%
2006/7 – Income 9.6%, expenditure 9.6%
2007/8 – income 9.5%, expenditure 9.6%
2008/9 – income 10.3%, expenditure 9.4%
2009/10 – income 9.4%, expenditure 9.3%
I fail to find this vast subsidy. Indeed, it would seem the Scottish economy has been in surplus and subsidising England and the rest of the UK while Westminster were destroying the UK economy with mindless Debtonomics. The same reports show the Scottish economy was one of the few in Europe with a consistent surplus which brings into question whether Scotland should bear any of the catastrophic debt the English/UK parliament has imposed upon it’s people in recent years.
It’s also interesting that in one of your articles you question whether an independent Scotland could service the “massive debt” it will take with her if she dissolves the UK. You fail to consider the mind-boggling debt that will be left to the English who will no longer be able to use much of the North Sea as collateral for further borrowing that they so desperately need.
S&P interestingly said that if Scotland were to end the UK, her credit rating would most likely fall by one unit to AAB+ but once the uncertainty and mechanics are sorted out she would most likely return to a AAA footing due to her substantial offshore and onshore assets yet to be harvested. They also said that England/rumpUK would similarly be downgraded due to the loss of the same resources with little prospect of achieving the top score in the short to medium term.
I suggest you do a little research into just how precarious the position is for England. Currently the UK has the second highest debt figure in the world. According to the CIA’s “World Fact Book”, as at 30th June 2010, the UK has a fraction under 9 trillion dollars in external debt. This represents $144,338 debt per person or 400% of GDP. No doubt you will realise that this situation will have worsened considerably since June 2010. These figures do not take account of the UK’s unfunded state pension debts, unfunded state-sector pension debts or PFI, which must also be added and the most recent estimates are as high as 4 trillion. Considering the total value of the UK is estimated to be around 7 trillion, it would suggest that the UK is bankrupt.
If you look at the UK form a balance of trade perspective, the outlook is indeed grim. The IMF list the UK at 186 out of 191 listed nations with a balance of trade deficit of 40 billions for 2010. Greece, Portugal and Ireland are above us in the list.
What’s really interesting about their data however is that Norway, a country of 5 million people like Scotland, who were a relativey poor country before the discovery of oil, who share roughly 50% of the resources of the North Sea with Scotland (even after the 1999 “land grab” by Westminster where 6000 sq. miles of Scottish territory became English) were fifth highest on that list with a trade surplus of 50 billions in 2010.
Again I fail to find any “Union Dividend” for Scotland being evident. On paper it looks like being in a Union with England has been disasterous considering the poor state she finds herself in within the UK where the South has become fat on debt and the regions have become poorer. Ironic, considering they are expected to foot the bill. Of course there was a golden period for the Union, where both nations prospered, but since the war the black hole that is London and the South have asset stripped and squandered potential and what I find remarkable is that despite this, Scotland is still economically viable.
The issue we Scots face with regard to England is not about greed nor any sense of injustice but simply a choice concerning whether or not we hang on to a sinking ship or jump in the lifeboat our natural wealth provides.
England is in trouble and the sooner you realise your time would be better spent solving your own problems the better, rather than perpetually undermining your cousins across the border.
Regards
Out of interest how much of the national debt is due to Scottish banks regulated by a Scottish Chancelor
As a British man, (I consider myself British, not English), but also as a Conservative I can see pros and cons to scottish independance, on the one hand, my party of choice would almost definately have a possible safe majority. However, my worry is that the UK (it wouldn’t be that anymore) would lose alot of politcal clout, among the fact that our great nation would break apart because of some pseudo-patriotic cause.
Also, if Scotland is 60% publicly employed, what would happen to these jobs should the union end?
I see no oppression on the ‘Scottish’ people, nor do I see any restrictions on their freedoms, which by all means should validate a people’s claims for independance, but I see no social injustice, only some sort of apparant economical injustice which in my eyes has no grounds.
I was having a discussion with an SNP supporter who noted that England got the high speed railway over Scotland, I argued that England has 10x the population of Scotland and that London has a larger population than the entirety of Scotland, so by logic and equality, was this not the right decision.
It would make me deeply saddened if the union ended, I would feel like I have lost part of my cultural heritage.
Jfen,
Thankyou for your polite contribution to this thread. Many seem xenophobic in the extreme here which is a shame as we’ll still have a close social union irrespective of whether or not the parliamentary Union ends.
I can see why you’re torn between the clear advantage your party of choice would have in England should the Union end and the loss of clout on a world stage and possibly of some cultural heritage.
My personal experience of the issue is this: up until 5th May when the SNP won their almost miraculous majority (the Scots parlaiment was specifically set up so that couldn’t happen) I was a staunch supporter of the Union but the victory forced me, like many, to seriously look at the issue. After months of reading about the subject, I genuinely cannot find a single reason for the Union to continue. It’s undoubtedly been bad for Scotland for two, maybe three generations now with the relentless centralisation to the South East and the wholesale de-industrialisation of the country. Our best talent has headed South and continues to do so and like many of the other regions of the UK, those that remain are less industrially active, older and hence why in the regions you see a higher proportion of public sector spend. That is a fact any new Scottish government will clearly have to address.
What is lost on many down south and indeed myself until recently is the true nature of the economic relationship between the coutries. The GERS report shows the net position of Scotland within the UK. Even though the annual reports are still far from perfect in terms of accounting for all of the income that would head for any Scottish exchequor, it has clearly shown that Scotland is one of the few countries in Europe able to balance it’s books. In 5 of the last 6 reports, Scotland showed a small surplus with only 09/10 showing a net deficit of 6 billions. 6 billions is 1/100th of the debt accrued South of the border. during the same period.
To give you an example of how skewed even these figures are, the GERS report only allocates a per capita share of corporation tax receipts to Scotland (8.6%). Yet the Government’s own figures have shown that year on year 20-22% of all corporation tax receipts in the UK come from Scottish territory. Obviously, all CT is paid into the London exchequor but upon separation, a fifth of all CT will be paid into Edinburgh. This fact is not reflected in GERS nor in any other figures you’ll see reported in the press but would be an absolute certainty if the Union ends unless somehow London lays claim to Aberdeen, the Orkneys etc. Also, most large companies operating from Scotland itself or Scottish territory in the case of oil/gas companies base their head offices in London and as such have ALL their corporation tax credited to that region and not Scotland. Another example is Trident where the entire cost is levied against just 8.6% of the population (guess where). This is why it’s pityful the Mail and Sun attack the Scots in the way they do as Scotland pays more than it’s fair share into the Union which is a fact all the parties other than the SNP will tell you as they are all Unionist.
If Scotland was such a drain on those south of the border, why has Westminser tried every dirty trick in the book to retain the Union? The Conservative govt in the early 70s commissioned a report on the impact of oil on Scottish separatism. It was called the McCrone report after the Chief Economist who wrote it. In it, he clearly states: “An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses would be so large as to be embarrassing”; “Scotland’s currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.”; “Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and this situation could last for a very long time into the future.” THIS DOCUMENT WAS CLASSIFIED UNDER THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT BY 6 PRIME MINISTERS IN WESTMINSTER. Considering there is at least 40 years of current level production still to come, with an increasing demand for oil, Scotland would be very well placed to tackle it’s problems and run consistent budget surpluses. This is why I said earlier in the thread that the choice the Scots have to make is whether they hang on to a sinking ship or jump into the lifeboat their offshore (and increasingly onshore) resources provide. Norway has 5 million people like Scotland, similar resources and is somewhere between the second and fifth richest nation on Earth per capita yet they started from the same starting point in the early 70s as Scotland. Union dividend? Where?
Scotland declined like the other peripheral regions in England due to the London-centric view of Westminster which has since proven to be an unmitigated disaster. The UK is the second most indebted nation in the world after the US with a struggling service based economy. It can only head south in the economic rankings so to be fair Jfen, the vast majority of Scottish people are not showing some notion of a “pseudo-patriotic” cause, they are simply having the blinkers removed from their eyes.
Scotland is still a nation in it’s own right, enshrined in the Act of Union itself, and despite what alot on here will tell you it is entirely within it’s rights to end the Treaty and walk away. It’ll be sad for alot of reasons but as a Scotsman who’s witnessed the decline and asset stripping of the country for the past 50 years, it will ultimately be for the best. Scotland will still need England (for trade) and England will still need Scotland (for power, fuel and water) so once the shouting has finished I believe we’ll end up like the Scandinavians countries who, after divorce, most definitely still look out for each other and are all better off for finding their own national identities once again.
Regards.
I agree with many of your points, however, we are, on the world stage at least Stronger together, and I recognise the effects on the north and Scotland from when Thatcher ‘Modernised’ our industry, and this is something urgent the UK needs to look at in able to be a more stable country.
I do not think Scottish independance would be best for the British isles in the long term,
and I beleive the Independance movement is quite reactionary in that it looks at what the UK can do for Scotland, rather than what Scotland can do for the UK. And this isn’t me saying saying Scotland should not get it’s share, what I mean the UK should be indentified by itself, not by the 4 states we have.
It also worries me of the slight Anglophobic sentiment that some of the SNP ministers have.
p.s. an edit function would be great to correct mistypes and errors. Thanks.
I recognise completely the point you make in the first sentence about us being stronger together. I have said the same for years. But the UK as we know it is in a steep decline and wherever you’re from on these islands we cannot and must not ignore that. Reagonomics and Thatcherism (I was a fan of hers) has continued in various forms since the early 80s and sadly has proved to have brought the UK and the US to the brink. Debtonomics and the free market of greed simply hasn’t worked while leaving our country bereft of diversity through it’s de-industrialisation and centralising policies. It’s hard to see any way out of the situation either as a service-based economy will always have a trade deficit which erodes wealth.
I live in England just now and have family here but I do wish to return to the Highlands with my younger ones (for quality of life rather than financial reasons) hence my interest in this issue. What vexes me is that my generation will be the first generation to leave the next generation in a worse position. The debt that we will be leaving to them is barely fathomable. Both Scotland and England need to totally reinvent themselves if they are going to stop the rot and compete in this new world order. The months of homework now have shown me clearly that their interests would be best served in an independant Scotland as I have seen no desire whatsoever from any of the mainstream parties at Westminster to tackle the deep seated structural problems we have. To be frank, the UK needs a huge kick up the backside but I can’t see any of the establishment being willing to do this. You may see this as a somewhat selfish choice but if I get the chance I will be opting for what I believe will be the best course for the younger ones as Scotland is small in population but large in resources onshore and offshore. I cannot stand by while London and the South line their pockets at my kids’ and grandkids’ expense and this equally applies for the vast majority of the English too.
Ever increasingly I see the people around me in England get more frustrated with Westminster. The same old arguments and rhetoric. The English are completely disenfranchised by the current system whereupon every five years we elect what is no more than an elective dictatorship. The endless ramblings in the Commons and Lords are utterly meaningless when the whip system ensures the wishes of the PM and his closest cabinet members are passed without question. The reason the SNP were so successful in May was not because most wanted independence at that time, nor was it just an anti-Labour vote but because the SNP had successfully run a minority administration in Scotland and demonstrated a Scotland-focussed positive agenda. This was against the backdrop of the entire television and press media being 100% against them – remarkable. The Scots, like many in England, felt disenfranchised and voted for what could end up being a sea-change. The author of this article refers to the SNP as the Scottish Numpty Party yet what they achieved was unique in British politics. I hear all the time from those around me that they wish there was an equivalent mainstream party down here that stands up for the English like Alex Salmond does up there. I agree with them 100%. UK/England needs modernising and fast and the two-party set up is proving destructive as they continually undermine each other for the sake of it. Too many people in ermine getting fat while being devoid of any idea of what’s going on outside London.
Regards
RE: James Spiers – I had to post a comment.
I am a Scot who likes to follow the discussion on Scottish nationalism and the dramatic rise of the SNP. I am always fascinated in how it is presented by the UK media and in particular by the blogosphere.
In the last Hollyrood election I voted SNP for the first time ever – previously being a Labour party member of some 20 years. I didn’t vote for the ‘numpties’ out of some indefinable sense of patriotic exuberance. They had in their previous minority tenure in Hollyrood proved themselves to be the most competent, trustworthy and positive party.
The determined and negative presentation of Scotland and Scots in large swathes of the media (and on this blog) as whinging, scroungers, subsidy junkies, soap dodging et cetera is just so childish and ill informed. It is insulting only in its intent not in its execution.
It is common currency in any discussion on Scottish politics that as a region/nation we pay in more than we get out – (an indisputable fact). The constant hum of these lies is worthy of Goebbels and indeed it seems to be working in England, where it isn’t really needed.
In Scotland where it is intended it has little or no effect, other – that is – to regard UK politicians as negative, desperate liars.
It is really no surprise that the SNP has risen so dramatically.
Scottish Nupty Party?
Really?
I am an Asian living in Asia. I am extremely puzzled why people in UK want to break up their country! As it is UK is already a relatively small nation both in terms of population and land size, compared to USA, Russia, China, India, Brazil etc. Your economic and political influence in the world has in fact declined substantially over the years because of your comparative decrease in size. Even France and Germany are now viewed higher than you economically, and have also on the way of eclipsing you politically, if they have not already done so; let alone compared to the much bigger Asian countries of China, Japan and even Korea in near future.
Scotland and England; you all basically speak the same language, and of the same ethnicity. What is there to fight over. Even EU now is trying to forge fiscal and further union among very different nations and peoples. Why is Scotland and England doing the reverse then when the people are very much similar. In my mind, even Republic of Ireland should naturallybe in UK.
Just my puzzlement as an outsider from Asia.
No No No let Scotland go. Highest unemployment rate in the UK, worst health rate, most subsidised. It’s a myth how much oil and gas ‘lies’ in ‘Scottish’ waters. Massive benifit to England as less chance of a Labour goverment losing Scotlands 17% of Westminster seats vs 8% of the population which are mostly Labour. Instinitutionalised gerrymandering since year dot. In the long term i’d prefer the banks over the oil anyday (anyone whose been to a casino knows the bank allways wins). I should know I worked at RBS for 6 years and no not behind the till. While we’re at it Wales and NI can disapear too.
What a mess this would cause. Scotland has done as well from England as vise-versa and now both countries would become weaker.
I agree it’s going to be horrible, messy and awful. Leading to a load of ridiculous re-emergence of long redundant rivalries and over romantised ideals of yore. It should be dead and buried in this the year of our lord 2012
You lot are priceless, the banks HBOS/RBS are Scottish when they are doing well. They’re London run and regulated now they’ve f**d everything up. I used to work for RBS it’s a Scottish bank, it has an office in Edinburgh with thousands of people working in it, and it’s the HEAD office. Check it out I’m not making this up.
Source :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/7121112/RBS-is-considering-sale-of-flagship-headquarters-Gogarburn.html
BTW the banks screwed up under a Scottish Chancelor. The receipts from oil won’t prop up a nation with the worst health issues in Europe, the most subsidised small country, a 60% public sector most of the job’s of which will revert back to England, Student’s will have to start paying for their fees. The UK’s tax receipts were £447 Billion last year the portion that comes from NSO was £6bn then England’s claim on that will be substantial approx 30-40% being as most of the Gas is in a debatable/grey area.
Source:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_receipts/tax-nic-receipts-info-analysis.pdf
Then the question what money are you going to chose? It can only be the a Scottish currency or the Euro as any keeping the UK pound will have interest rates set by the rest of the UK. There is absolutely no way given what’s gone on in Southern Europe recently that this will be acceptable as recent History shows.
Don’t get me wrong I’ve got nothing against Scotland many an intellectual/inventor/artist/poet has come from there and the people are great. I just think it’s ridiculous we joined together because we couldn’t stand up against the rest of the world and we’d wasted so much energy fighting each other. Now for some crackpot reason we want to split up? Look at the other small countries that have perished under the Euro? Greece 22% unemployment. The UK may be in Sh1t at the moment but that’s no reason to break up 200 years of history because of some ridiculous romantic notion
I think if the UK devolves it should do so completely Wales can stick to farming, NI can become part of Ireland’s Police and Security expenditure costs for a change. England can happily go it alone.
If anyone is open to some intelligent debate then please reply…
Reading these comments it’s going to be a very bitter divorce, the kids won’t be happy.
Simon Grey,
You wrote: “If anyone is open to some intelligent debate then please reply…”
I am sure we would if we found any evidence of it.
Regards,
James S
Looking from the outside and having lived in England and Scotland, I have nothing but contempt for the racist individuals that reside in England, Finally the morons who killed the young black man when I was in the UK have been arrested, only took 20 years.
Let Scotland have their vote and stop being childish. You will note that the polls say that the majority of Scotland don’t want independence and see themselves as British.
However reviewing the comments from the mindless uneducated morons who reside in England (I don’t call them English) because you are the moronic minority that reside in England and I don’t think you represent the thinking educated Englishman or woman. It might be why so many are escaping the “Great England” to emigrate and get away from the evil rioting, thieving. and just nasty people that we see on the international news. You are the ones that pride yourself on the idiotic moronic accent. I aint bovvered me ole mucker!!!!!
History will tell you that it is the condescending attitude you have for anyone that is not English that makes people dislike you, every country that you have delt with in building the empire wanted or still wants independence, you are nasty, judgemental, childish and don’t possess a national identity that you can be proud of.
If you represent the English psyche then I am glad my parents decided to leave old blighty for a better life away from such a broken society
A bit of advice, Get over it; the only thing left of the empire is a Pyre of debt, uneducated morons, racism, and waning bully ability!!!!!! Grow up and stop angering people of different nationality!!!!! You would be better off to be friendly and understanding to your neighbours or friends rather than putting them down all the time with the obnoxious attitude that you are better than them, this is why they resent you.
I feel sorry for N Ireland and Wales if the Scottish do vote to leave the union. They will be next to face the racist and nasty psyche of the moron. .
1. What nationality do you consider yourself to be?
2. Which country do you live in?
3. As for the Stephen Lawrence case, if you think that was a fair trial with a correct outcome you do not understand the nature of evidence. See http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/stephen-lawrence-gary-dobson-david-norris-and-a-political-trial/
4. Please learn that abuse and assertion does not count as argument.
Robert
I am not sure I would like to tell you my nationality and face the torrent of racist and childish rhetoric.
I note that reading the facts as quoted by qualified sources on this blog that your only argument is to quote erroneous facts and throw abuse usually in numbered format for some reason.. You must work for the government. I only hope that you and Simon Grey are not typical of the English people and that the English do allow the vote to take place and let Scotland to confirm their commitment or decide whether or not to leave the Union, as is their right. I have been watching the English News Papers on line and no surprise the same old scummy reporting. Not only are they not brought to heal for the cowardly spying and intrusion but they now make things worse by childish reporting on the vote. Is this your educated Englishman and women working in London. No wonder things are looking bad nasty nasty people.
I must say you sound like a cheating bullying husband who has now found out his wife is leaving him for the years of neglect and abuse and looking for something better, jealousy may be getting the better of you.
So far reading the blog I see educated argument on the side of proving Scotland’s worth and contribution to the Union and all I see from you and Simons end is a load of personal ill founded nonsense.
I would say the score is 3 to Scotland for contributing more to the Welfare of Britain, and England gets a big fat 0.
Being British I take grave offence to those statements. You seem to criticise Robert for his opinion. Not only that but you generalise widely, then you codemn him for stating an opinion while insulting him and me yourself. You also seem to be very ignorant on the wide range of opinions eminating from the UK. And you make the assumption all the people in England are all 19th century jingo-imperialists who would deny democracy to the people in Scotland.
I also get the jist that you somehow think being proud of, and wanting your country to be prosperous somehow means you wish every other country and it’s peoples to fail miserably. I can assure you this is not the case.
While Robert sometimes does give in to the occational emotional insult/statement, You seem to be pissing in wind in the fact your arguement consists of calling Robert and the English Vile and Racist, You then disregard anyone who may share his views as uneducated morons.
So I put it to you, that you are the ignorant one, whom is quite prejudiced.
P.S – Please take a good hard look at your self-hating attitude and realise that the past is the past and there is noone alive today who you can blame for any of the Empire’s wrongdoings.
Oh me oh my, a British person is gravely offended, what a calamity!!! The rest of thw world wont be able to sleep tonight!!!!!!!
People in glass houses should not throw stones!!!! Take a look at the right hand side of the recent copmments on this site, it is all racist or redneck tripe, we want more guns or what a travesty that the police are prosecuting a bunh of murdering cowards.…… You might want to take a good hard look at your self in the mirror and think about that when you so freely support the nonsense in this blog in regards to what you three (yourself, Simon and Robert) are espousing “we want our toys such as the military plans, tanks and ships back, but we want you to pay the debt for those – Scotland!!!. Military hardware once purchased is a financial liability it is not a financial asset, you are never going to sell it. It has been proven that Scotland pays more per individual than England e.g. 22% of Corporate tax with only 10 percent of the population, not to mention the huge amount of oil revenue it contributes. You are stll living in the Eighties where the Government made Glasgow into what it was – a low ecomonic and depressed society. It is in a cultural boom now. Now you talk of stealing land from Scotland because you want that too. Get a grip……, bully tactics don’t work anymore there is no empire, international law stipulates ownership of state EEZ’s.
Think about the offence you cause to the nation of Scotland, but who seem to be the biggest contributors to your union and in history, they have been the very cultural and inventive people of the Union, they have invented many of the things the developed world takes for granted. But what do you offer? Whinge and throw your toys out of the cot and demand your ball back because you can’t score a goal.
As I say again let them in peace to have a vote to reaffirm their commitment to the Union or let them decide to go it alone. They must be a very strong people to put up with such silly childish behaviour being expressed by you and your cohorts and the tripe that spews out of the English papers…
I did not call all English morons or racists, I called Robert and Simon one but you also fit the bill as well.
OK. I gave you a chance to do more than assert and you failed comprehensively. You do not deserve further reply. By all means keep posting, but remember, every time you do it will merely show your intellectual inadequacy.
If you want independence, I hope the hundreds of lazy no good piss artist/druggie scots that have infected my town of Blackpool will fuck off back…..I can’tblame them for wanting to be here, everytime I have been to Scotland it has pissed down with rain, the place is grey grey grey, and the “food” is not fit for pigs.
Another English brain at full tilt………………………..
Keep on going racist, you are showing your true national colours. England seems to be full of the lowest of the low and a bunch of uneducated buffoons. No wonder everyone wants to escape your bitterness and racist redneck beliefs. If you represent the typical English person, I hope no more of you come to my countryl!!!! Believe me many are emigrating and it must be because of people like you. We dont need your type here so please stay right where you are, your country deserves to reatain the likes of you. The best thing my parents did was leave England to get away from the likes of you!!!!
Ha Ha what a joke the Englishman has become!!!!.
reading some of the comments from both sides of hadrians wall makes me sad i dont want
our UNITED KINGDOM to break up let all of us work together and rebuild this wonderful island
there is an old saying united we stand divided we fall
Robert, Simon and jFen’s argument toward independence has almost little fact or truth at all. As has already been said, poor and bias journalism south of the border fills you’re heads with nonsense. The negative campaign is not doing the UK Government any good at all. It simply enrages the people of England under false information that they subsidies us and just reminds the people of Scotland they will lie to our faces in order to save themselves. I am a 20 year old Scotsman and feel i have to say that, there is not a hatred toward the English people from Scotland(A rivalry? Yes!). It is in fact the opposite. Posts from Robert, Simon and jFen blame Scotland for England’s suffering but without the Scots(Who England forced to join the union by blocking our trade routes and bribing Scotland’s land owners) the United Kingdom wouldn’t have accomplished everything she did. The UK now doesn’t work, it spends more than it makes. If it were a company in the same situation then it would cease to exist. Scotland can escape the Union and facts and figures prove we can flourish as an Independent nation. English scaremongering tactics have been proved wrong. Personally i think Westminster should stay out of it! Its our Country, Our Decision.
Another old saying, ” We’re bought and sold for English Gold, Sic a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.”
Regards,
Davie Thomson
We can be fed unlimited amounts of information and percentages on who pays what, how much, who owns the oil, what it’s worth etc But the real issue is about having decisions affecting Scottish citizens made in an independent country. We can make comparisons all day long with other countries like Norway for obvious reasons and small countries like Belgium, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Iceland et al but it’s pointless. This isn’t a break up for racist or nationalistic reasons, its quite simply one of the signatories of the Act of Union in 1707 reverting back to their status prior to that Act coming into being. There is nothing sinister in this, it happens and continues to happen all over the world. Czechoslovakia being a recent example. Why wouldn’t England and Scotland be able to function as cross border independent countries like Canada and the US ,Norway and Sweden or Spain and Portugal? There is no question whatsoever that Scotland can and will function as an independent country as many others do so no amont of scaremongering will make any difference. Slainte!
how sad, and yes it is saddening that so many of you spout your vitriol with little understanding of the facts.
have a look at the darien scheme,a scottish attempt at colonisation,off they went with ships laden with oats,blankets,sheep and all the sundry things to establish a colony in the new world, to panama…sheep dont do all that well in the tropics,oats wont grow in the humidity and a woollen kilt is the last thing you would want
not surprising most of these intrepid colonists died,the whole venture cost the scottish economy dearly with its failure,almost a fifth of the money in scotland at the time was tied up in this ill conceived venture
it took english money to bail the scots out of this mess (shades of rbs??)
this weakening of the scottish economy was a major factor in them having to accept the act of union in 1707
but all that said if the scotish nation wants to independence why not let them have a referendum?
seems there might be the slight matter of some money to be paid in respect of past debts
having grown up in Canada i have seen all this before with the French element in Quebec being quite vocal about secession,they had their vote,more than one actually and surprise? no was the majority answer
if the scotts want independence then fine,feelings are running high in england at the moment
as santa ana once said
‘those who fail to study history are,merely,doomed to repeat it’
Ha Ha Canada!!!! Santa ana is a county seat in Orange county California, Do you mean Santa Claus or George Santayana?
If you mean George Santyana he actually said “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”. Once again poorly researched rhetoric that comes out of fools and is incorrect!!!!! Much the same as your silly explanation. Australia is a very hot country that sits on the tropic of Capricorn and it is very hot and tropical.. They have one of the greatest populations of sheep in the world and I am sure the Scots could have taken thier Kilts off if they wanted????
HA HA HA….Now the britishers dividing themselves up…. Easy for the French to f**k them now!!!!
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What a sad lttle site, with nothing but brainwashed bluster in it… You really are wrong in what you say – all of it, 3 small examples of where you have it wrong include: the debt the remainder of Britain owes scotland for its massive military contribution over the centuries and where to this day, it takes half a million less citizens in scotland to create a battalion. England has virtually no water supplies, where does that come from free of charge? And… The UK only exists due to the union of the two kingdoms. Wales is a principality, ULster is only a province of 6 counties. Thus what you mean is that once Scotland has her autonomy back, what will be left will be ‘Britain’. You add to the problem because you want to make British English. We can no more accept that than you allowing european to mean french or german.
What you people don’t seem to understand is that you are as much a victim of the misinformation campaign as the Scots are…. The civil service don’t want you to be independant either, campaign for an english parliament yourselves, most Scots will applaud and support you for it as we know the truth… But make no mistake, you need us way more than we need you and stop peddling this sort of tripe, it only shows you up as a victim of propaganda!
I have been reading these comments. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, the lack of respect you have for each other is disgusting.
Firstly I am English and would like to see the UK remain as one. The reason for this has nothing to do with oil, money or power but simply because we are one island with a shared past. Our families span across both countries and for most people this is important.
I think the Scottish people should have a vote and whatever the outcome we should all support that.
The Oil doesn’t matter to me at all, its 2% of UK GDP compared to what would be 30-35% of Scottish GDP. If you a Government want to tie themselves so closely to oil, that is a big risk. My final comment, Scottish Oil? I doubt it – Shetland Oil – absolutely yes.I only hope that the people of Shetland have their voice heard in their historic struggle for independence too.
We need English people (including me) to stop talking about this issue – leave it to the Scottish people.
If Scotland breaks away the we must make the Welsh take the same route, The Welsh offer nothing but to bleed us dry. Lets be little England once again
Why do the majority of Scottish posters think that the majority of the population of England give a fuck if you stay or leave? Why do the populations of the UK nations apart from England think that England own or control any of you.
Hold a referendum in England today and we would vote for our own independence! It’s the Government that stops it the Government of the UK, that was controlled by the Scottish for years under labour which left us all in the mess we are in know, take that as your trial run.
Take your freedom the freedom you already have and stop whinging like pathetic little children ‘it’s all the nasty little English folks fault for our misfortunes’ we would be so much better off with out them apart from all the years as a nation we protected each other without us you would have been conquered by other nations.
You entered a union, your country was bankrupted, you asked us for our help!!!!
PLEASE UNDERSTND THE MAJORITY OF ENGLAND DO NOT CARE, WE ARE INDIFFERENT, WE DO NOT HATE YOU, WE DO NOT CARE IF YOU LEAVE OR STAY IT IS YOUR CHOICE JUST STOP BANGING ON ABOUT IT AS THOUGH WE THE ENGLISH PUBLIC ARE TRYING TO STOP IT OR WE ARE ALL SITTING AROUND IN PUBS UP DOWN THE COUTRY RUNNING SCARED OF THE IDEA, IN THE MOST WE ALL WELCOME IT.
Yours faithfully
An Englishman who wishes you all the best, you can even take all the oil and gas who gives a toss.
Calm down Dave, it was an English man that started this thread, not a Scot.
Also, I can assure you we Scots couldn’t care less what the English think.
Enjoy your day.
yes he is wrong SCOTLAND WAS NOT BANKRUPT IT WAS OUR WORTHLESS NOBLES
YES LETS LOOK AT THE DARIEN EXPERIMENT it was the nobles that went bankrupt the burghs were solvent and it was the english government that backstabbed them in the first place
helping the spanish to block our convoys why so there was no competion with english expansion