Scottish independence? Yes, but only on these terms

by Robert Henderson

The Scots Numpty Party (SNP) has managed to defeat the  attempts of the unionists who deliberately devised the electoral system to thwart single party government (and hence leave independence off the practical political agenda) and get a majority in Scotland.  The SNP leader Alex Salmond  can  now call  a referendum on independence . However, to have a referendum which is binding,   the SNP needs the sanction of the UK Parliament. From  his public comments David Cameron appears to accept that such a referendum would be binding because he has stated since this SNP victory that if a referendum was held he would campaign for a NO.

Whether or not Scotland would vote for independence is debatable.   Polls consistently show a majority against, although there are always a substantial number of “don’t knows”.  In a  referendum held only in Scotland with the YES campaign headed by  Salmond and the  NO campaign led by Scottish non-entities or people from outside of Scotland such as Cameron, it is possible  that a Yes result might be obtained.

I have no visceral objection to Scots independence, but the strongest objection to Scotland walking away from the Union  without taking full responsibility for themselves and leaving the English to pick up the financial mess which a mixture of regular English subsidy of Scotland and the massive costs of the rescuing  the Scottish banks RBS and HBOS has disguised.   To this end the conditions Cameron should lay down for Scottish independence are these :

  1. Scotland to take a share of the UK National debt (excluding the costs involved in supporting Scottish banks and building societies, mainly the RBS and HBOS banks) proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland.  The servicing of this debt to be the first charge on Scotland’s public financing.
  2. Scotland to pay for the past and future costs of bailing out  Scottish  banks and building societies.
  3. The huge English subsidies to Scotland to cease immediately on a Yes vote being achieved.
  4. All English public sector jobs which have been exported to Scotland to be brought back to England. This would include not merely traditional civil service posts, but facilities such as those supporting UK nuclear submarines.
  5. Scotland to launch its own currency or join the Euro. If they remain tied to the pound they would have no true independence and practically be dependent on England for the macro management of their economy.
  6. The division of the oil and gas fields to be made on the basis of extending a line at the angle of the coastline on the England-Scotland border. This is in accordance with the UN  convention  on the Law of the Sea article 7  This would give England a substantial proportion of the oil and even more of the gas fields.
  7. Scotland to be gifted any state owned building in Scotland but to have no claim on publicly owned facilities in the remainder of the UK.
  8. Nuclear submarines and any other fundamentally important military equipment to be moved to England
  9. All military research to be moved to England.
  10. All future UK defence expenditure to be made in the remainder of the UK. Scotland to form its own armed forces. These to be capable of not only defending Scottish land but also of policing Scottish territorial waters.
  11. Scotland to be gifted all military establishments in Scotland, but Scotland to have no claim on military establishments elsewhere in the UK or abroad.
  12. Military equipment. Scotland to be gifted existing equipment sufficient to equip whatever forces Scotland forms provided this equipment does not exceed what is available to similar UK forces.
  13. All publicly funded non-military research in Scotland to be moved to the remainder of the UK.
  14. Scotland to be responsible for the payment of all public sector pensions earned in Scotland before independence.
  15. Scotland to be responsible for a share proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland of  EU related pensions  earned before independence.
  16. Scotland to be responsible for the financing all government contracts relating to building, goods and services supplied in Scotland which were entered into before independence.
  17. Property relating to UK diplomatic missions to remain the property of the remainder of the UK.
  18. Scotland to be responsible for a share of diplomatic pensions earned before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population  in Scotland.
  19. Scotland to be responsible for a share of any  public service pensions earned abroad  before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population  in Scotland.
  20. Immigration to Scotland from outside the EU and for any future new EU members to be controlled on the same basis as the UK controls immigration.
  21. Scotland to make its own application for EU membership without support from the Westminster government.
  22. If the remainder of the UK or England alone leaves the EU, the following may be put in place:   a) border controls between Scotland and the remainder of the UK b) Scotland to be treated as any other member of the EU would be treated c) UK protectionist barriers to Scotland d) an end to free movement from Scotland to the remainder of the UK and e)an end to Scots citizens enjoying the benefits of the UK Welfare State
  23. If Scotland is unable to gain EU membership, all of 23 may apply apart from (b).Conditions 1-22 can be enforced while  the UK  without Scotland remains in the EU. If  the UK without Scotland leaves the EU or England alone leaves the EU,  then condition 22 is legal.
  24. Scotland to pay all the costs of separation including those involved in moving the nuclear deterrent to England.

Scots will  complain about not being given a share equivalent to their proportion of the UK population of  the material assets of the UK armed forces or of diplomatic assets abroad. However, it is not unreasonable to advantage the remainder of the UK because England has massively subsidised  Scotland ever  since the Union in 1707.  The subsidy began with the Act of Union, viz:

“Clause IX. THAT whenever the sum of One million nine hundred ninety seven thousand seven hundred and sixty three pounds eight shillings and four pence half penny, shall be enacted by the Parliament of Great Britain to be raised in that part of the United Kingdom now called England, on Land and other Things usually charged in Acts of Parliament there, for granting an Aid to the Crown by a Land Tax; that part of the United Kingdom now called Scotland, shall be charged by the same Act, with a further Sum of forty-eight thousand Pounds, free of all Charges, as the Quota of Scotland, to such Tax, and to proportionably for any greater or lesser Sum raised in England by any Tax on Land, and other Things usually charged together with the Land; and that such Quota for Scotland, in the Cases aforesaid, be raised and collected in the same Manner as the Cess now is in Scotland, but subject to such Regulations in the manner of collecting, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain.”

The population of England was five times that of Scotland in 1707. Had Scotland  paid the  tax listed in Clause IX at the same rate as England  they would have paid £400,000.

Instead they were required to pay only  £48,000, roughly a ninth of the pro rata sum.

As for the oil and gas revenues, a substantial  part of that has come from oil and gas English  waters. Moreover,  oil revenues have only been flowing for around thirty years and Scotland was being subsidised by England for the better part of three centuries before that.   Nor is it true that oil and gas revenues have been consistently high because the oil and gas price was very low for a decade or more. In most years since 1980 Scotland would not have been contributing more to the UK Treasury than they took out even if ALL the oil and gas tax was allocated to them.

If the Scots wished to start claiming they should be compensated for things such as the UK  military expenditure , the retort would be all right we will let you  have that,  but in return we will expect you to repay all the subsidies Scotland has received since the Union began.

It is very improbable that Scotland would vote for independence on the terms I have outlined, but anything less would mean that England was taken for a ride and Scotland allowed to evade their responsibilities.  There is a very real danger that Cameron would pander to the Scots and let them escape these obligations. That is why English campaigners should begin now to press politicians to make sure the Scots are not allowed an easy ride to independence at England’s expense.

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341 Responses to Scottish independence? Yes, but only on these terms

  1. utakindipis@hotmail.co.uk says:

    go for it, if it gets rid of you obnoquios English thieving b a s t a r d s.

    • phill says:

      We have been taking care of scotland for far too long now. It is time to let these lazy sponging cunts go.

    • Vincent says:

      Then we will, you illiterate inbred savages.

      • Shania says:

        And you wonder why the scots hate the English. Learn to be less ignorant and grow up? Westminster treats England way better than Scotland and all you idiotic people who feed on all the nonsense Cameron tells you, more fool you. Once we’re independent, I’ll personally be patrolling the borders myself to make scotland a better place.

    • Scot Fucker says:

      Parasites of the North…

    • Dave says:

      What did England steal? The Union began in 1707 why was this? When did north sea oil turn up?

      and more importantly…

      Why will the Scottish public be too scared to vote for independence??

      • pru says:

        GOOD , now take your oil and your nasty drunk mates and FUCK OFF BACK TO CALADONIA!!!!! I dont want your stuff , I just wnt rid of you!!!!

    • Dave says:

      WOW! A Scot in full rant and pompous mode how unusual 🙂

      Well Done.

    • Ivor says:

      Fuck these kilt wearing cunts right off. They want a free ride, its why that prick Salmond is after a currency union becuase he wants to fucking ride on the back of the hard wokring taxpayers in the resut of the UK once those filthy haggis munching cunts vote yes.

      I say fuck them out of the union now and make them take responsbility for paying up all the cash we have given those filthy heroin injecting scottish scumbag mother fuckers.

      • Roger Graham says:

        Hmmmm. Interesting, if uncouth, language skills. Sponging? For the last several years Scotland has contributed more to Westminster in tax than it has received back in its share of expenditure. The real subsidy junkie of the UK is, as is well documented, Greater London and the south-east of England. I doubt if you have the cerebral capacity to understand facts and figure but they are there for anyone who has a brain to do so. As for ‘letting us go’ why don’t you vote for English independence then we shall both get our wish.

      • Graham says:

        This is not a football forum

    • F.G.Evans says:

      Obviously a sick twisted left wing Jock.This time with two Chips on shoulders.

    • pru says:

      YAYYY!!!!Scottish independence,this means we get rid of the RACIST CUNTS …FOR EVER!!!!.Can they also take their “ulster” mates with them? Then we can have some peace here in England!

    • Johnniecope says:

      Well! What can I say? You even have a place called twatt

  2. John says:

    England might be a lot better off without Scotland. But what happens to Northern Ireland? Who gets stuck with it?

  3. Nationalist says:

    Dividing the army should be easy enough: Scotland gets the Scottish regiments, Borderers, Highlanders, Blackwatch etc. Dividing the airforce and navy is quite a bit more difficult. In addition Scottish “nationals”serving in the residual English forces would need to exchanged with English people serving in Scottish forces.

    Also note: the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement. If Scotland became independent within the EU there would not be open borders between the two.

    • Vincent says:

      The Navy is England’s. the Scots have no claim on it. History backs me on this claim. The Scottish Navy such as it was disbanded, the English Royal Navy simply took over in the role, it’s why the RN flag is the White Ensign, essentially a Cross of Saint George.

      • joe says:

        your a twat us true scots built those bloddy boats for you english bastards in Glasgow we won the bloody war for you prick

      • bookman232 says:

        Joe dont rise to the bait and become another idiot poster,All thinking people north or south know the contribution made by the Scots.Good peope are good people no matter where they come from.
        I say to all posters hear beware of politicians and nationalists and stop taking each other for granted

      • Dave says:

        WOW! A Scot in full rant and pompous mode how unusual 🙂

        Well Done.

      • pru says:

        Hmmm…”st george” was not from Britain/England or UK, it was from another part of Europe

      • Graham says:

        There is no proof that St George existed

    • Shania says:

      No open borders? Thank goodness for that! I will be patrolling the borders myself.

      • Helena Brown says:

        No you won’t I doubt you know where it is, and then you will get cold and the dragons will get you. I bet you think Hadrian’s Wall is the Border.

      • Graham Longley says:

        Now now children, north and south

  4. I think England has claim to around 2-10% of the Oil revenues in the North Sea. But the Gas is mostly yours.

  5. John McKie says:

    Dear sir I would like to point something out to you firstly you say england bailed out Scottish banks but I am afraid to say as a English born Professor of economics that your arguments are in fact unfounded. Firstly it is a myth English tax payers subsidies Scotland england gets billions more than Scotland gets secondly you have forgotten that england receives direct subsidies out of Scottish oil and whiskey revenues many of my learned friends take only in to account Scottish income tax and council tax as to considering how much Scotland pays to the uk but in order to know the truth you must look at the whole picture. When you take into account all of Scotland’s revenue collected by the uk inclusive of oil whiskey, income tax, Corporation tax, Vat, Council tax, Landfill Tax, National insurance etc you will actually find Scotland is paying more to the uk than it gets and in fact Scotland has never received any of there oil revenues where as england has received extra funding from Scottish Oil funds. In Fact Scottish oil funds will be worth a minimum of around 3000 Billion pounds over the next thirty years which they will never receive. Further to this English banks were also bailed out including Halifax the banking crisis was also started in england with northern rock. We must not forget that Scotland has paid her way in tax ever since it came in to the union. The problem england has is that at current we do not spend money wisely here we throw huge sums in to quangos which frankly are not needed if we got rid of these quangos we could in fact survive independence. Secondly you should consider that London receives more public expenditure in the uk than any other part of the uk. Ireland also gets more than Scotland and in terms of population it is in fact smaller. It is in fact a myth that Scotland does not pay its way in fact it has among the highest council tax rates in the uk and the highest business rates in the uk. The problem is it is a myth Scotland gets English money and is in fact more often than not the other way round as huge portions of Scottish oil whiskey and corporation tax is spent in England. in fact the treasury are already aware of the fact that Scotland pays its own way and this is demonstrated by the granting of tax raising power to Scotland in the new Scotland bill in which Scotland government will raise a third off its budget using this rate itself for its own budget using the Scottish income tax rate of 10p without having to raise income tax. This means if Scotland where to have full fiscal autonomy they would in fact be billions and billions of pounds better of even being able to manage to have half the size of the uk armed forces for only around 3-4% of its gdp. So in fact if Scotland did get independence they would in fact be better off and england would struggle as would northern Ireland without the Scottish tax coming into the treasury as usually vast sums of that tax is diverted elsewhere. I can say this both as an economist and former treasury advisor. I hope Scots continue to believe Scottish unionist scare mongering that Scotland cannot survive independence if they dont continue to believe it england will struggle to cope with the loss of Scottish tax revenue!

    Yours truly

    Professor MCKie
    English Economist

    • Hadrian's Wall says:

      ‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has, and with similar attempts to interfere in its sovereign taxation affairs. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.

      It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:

      a) new oil reserves may be discovered

      b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves

      c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
      predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game

      d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values

      e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?

      e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.

      Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.

      Assuming that Scotland does use the euro, how long will its political independence last? There is an increasing level of opinion that believes that a political union is required to solve the problems of the eurozone.

      • “headquartered in Edinburgh”

        And regulated in London.

        “the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds”

        Borrowed money and bond issues. The Government is in debt, it doesn’t have stacks of taxpayer funds lying around to bail banks out.

    • Hadrian's Wall says:

      ‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, the newly-named Lloyds Group required support using UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has, and with similar attempts to interfere in its sovereign taxation affairs. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.

      It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:

      a) new oil reserves may be discovered

      b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves

      c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
      predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game

      d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values

      e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?

      e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.

      Assuming that Scotland does use the euro, how long will its political independence last? There is an increasing level of opinion that believes that a political union is required to solve the problems of the eurozone.

      Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.

    • Which chair of economics do you hold?

      • Hadrian's Wall says:

        I do not claim to be an economist, I simply do not believe ‘The Professor’ to be one either.

        To Robert Knight:

        HSBC, Barclays and Lloyds TSB (pre-HBOS) are also regulated in London and did not require a government bail-out. Irish, Icelandic and Greek banks, and Bank or America are not regulated in London but did require bailouts. It will be intesting to see the state of the german Landsbanken once that is finally revealed. The reply was due to ‘The Professor’s’ statement that The Halifax was an english bank, when the institution taken over by Lloyds TSB was HBOS, i.e. Halifax Bank of Scotland.

        Re: Taxpayer funds. Apologies, you are correct. What I should have put is that UK tax receipts will be used to pay interest on the funds borrowed to bail out the banks and that, hopefully, the eventual sale of the holdings in them will cover the cost of the funds borrowed. Perhaps I could also have mentioned that due to these borrowings, the cutbacks being made to services at a local an national level are the result in an attempt to reduce the overall level of borrowing by the UK.

    • Mike Wolstencroft says:

      Professor MCKie,

      With spelling and grammar that bad you are neither English nor a Professor.

    • in fact says:

      Christ, How many ‘in facts’ in that!!!

    • Simon Grey says:

      I don’t trust you mate Economists are usually instant experts after the stable door has bolted.

    • Shua247 says:

      A professor who Hardly uses full stops and no commas? A professor who says nothing but in fact in fact it’s a fact in fact it is a matter of fact in fact that facts are facts when you facilitate your factuality….. What a load of rubbish.

    • Shania says:

      Finally an unbiased account on the FACTS!

    • Paul says:

      If you are a Professor… God help us all!!

    • shaunthebrummie says:

      shouldn’t it say Prof McPrickie…

    • Dr I. T. Villiers says:

      RUBBISH! You’re a graduate of Wikipedia, your grammar, and syntax betray your ACTUAL education.
      If you’re a ‘professor’, then where’s your seat? In addition, the opinions within your overal argument, are not the opinions of disinterested education, but more of biased Scottish Nationalism. And they are ‘reinforced’ by bogus information.
      Only an idiot thinks that every other guy is a fool.
      I was going to leave it there – you’re funny enough! BUT, ‘Scottish Oil’?
      I’m still laughing!
      Very sorry ‘Professor’ :-)))))))))))))))))))

    • British and proud says:

      “As a Professor of economics”? So happy you are not claiming to be one of English, as clearly a man of three stripes would be able to convey the most simplistic argument into the correct grammar. Which you failed at!

      Moving back, hopefully to a far more civil discussion. The break up of the United Kingdom does no one any good. Together we have produced so many world firsts, so many triumphs, so many victories.

      The break up would do harm to so mant people, from the shipwrights on the Clyde, to the Newcastle processing plants, the Welsh oil terminal workers at Avonmouth, to the Ferry workers in Belfast. Yes, there shoot at the hip merchants on both sides of the argument. If there been subsidies, then all the better. That’s what a nation is, one where capital is moved from wealthier areas to another. The city bank may produce cash, but the cannot do it without the Welsh Steel worker who produces the steel for use on the new forth crossing. The Ulster cablemen working on the new crossing buy fuel for their cars produced in Sunderland at Nissan. The Nissain worker installs the cars roof panel produced in Glasgow. What we see is the benefit. Of one open trade area, the worlds first. A single uniformed currency that stable from over 300 years of stability giving the markets confidence in the nations ability to pay its debt. Why risk that?

      The only matters certain from a split in the United Kingdom that will be certain to raise its head will be uncertainty, division, competition, weakness in a world that is as uncertain today as it were in 1707. Today its Russia flexing her muscles again, IS, terrorists from overseas and many others.

      I love my country, if anything that’s where we’ve got lost. The pride, passion and patriotism of our forefathers has been bred out of us by 40 years of dogmatic teaching in schools that’s it bad to feel British,

    • pru says:

      LOL…can you please spell your name CORRECTLY for us?????

  6. Hadrian's Wall says:

    ‘The Halifax’ was a division of Bank of Scotland – headquartered in Edinburgh – when the crisis started. The next-to-insolvent HBOS was bought by Lloyds TSB, supposedly as a rescue. When it subsequently became apparent that the damage to HBOS was substabtially greater than at first thought, this led to the newly-named Lloyds Group requiring UK taxpayer funds. Presumably, an independent Scotland would have received bank-bailout euros from the ECB – rather like Ireland has. I note that ‘Professor McKie’ fails to mention RBS.

    It is impossible to predict the GBP value of ‘Scottish’ oil over the next 30 years, i.e. ‘*will* be worth’:

    a) new oil reserves may be discovered

    b) lower-than-expected recovery rates may occur with the existing reserves

    c) the price of oil is (currently) denominated in US dollars not sterling and trying to
    predict currency movements over the next 30 years is a (economist’s) mug’s game

    d) due to point (c), oil reserves are described by the ‘number of barrels’ that they contain and not monetary values

    e) substabntial reserves may be discovered on brought online in other parts of the world, depressing the price of existing ‘Scottish’ oil and gas reserves – and the tax recovered thereon – in the process. Russian Arctic and Canadian oil sands, for example, Perhaps a Giant Leap Forward with fusion power?

    e) whatever the current or future value of the deposits, trying to second guess the taxation that may be applied to their extraction is also a (economist’s) mug’s game.

    Scotland can have its oil. I will have my English nation’s independence.

  7. bob says:

    I believe that Scotland is well able to govern itself; as well as take care of her citizens, and defend her borders.

    I believe Scotland would be much better off, in general terms, without the need to be part of the UK or the EU.

    The EU will continue to take ever more from Scotland, and increase its control over its member states.

    I hope that someday soon, Scotland becomes a free and independent country. The successful transition to independence will demonstrate to other EU member states that it is possible (and preferable) to live free and by ones own dictates.

    • shaunthebrummie says:

      you forgot to say and the repatriation of porridge wogs 1st..2nd..3rd..generation…cant wait….why cant we just have a war like the good old days in the 16th century…

      • James S says:

        What, like before, when you usually had about a 5 to one advantage in man to man combat and still couldn’t win the day?

        Trust me little man, the history book don’t explain the inexplicable fact above but there is no disputing the obvious conclusion: most of the English armies tucked-tail and ran when the going got tough. It is practically impossible to win battles with such a numerical disadvantage yet the Scots did it in half of the battles which confirms your forebearers were in the most part cowards at the end of the day.

        Something the Saxons, Angles, Normans, Romans, Norsemen, Jutes and often the French found too. Otherwise, you would never have been conquered………like the Scots!

        I had to laugh at one of your other comments where you suggest Man U aren’t doing well because their manager is a Scot. Yet the previous Man U manager was the most successful manager in English football ever and he was a Scot. Are you aware of how ignorant you are? I feel for your kind though, to constantly be scraping your knuckles on the ground when you walk must be annoying.

        Regards

      • Graham says:

        what a bunch of silly childish comments–from north and south/
        You should all be put on a log raft and floated out to sea

      • Roger Graham says:

        Wow. Your intellect is astounding. Let me guess…..you’re a member of Mensa.

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  9. derek says:

    Our gvt in london wont stand in way of a vote in Scotland.but we English must ask ourselves why our gvt will fight to save the union by every fibre !snp have only asked for more powers to raise money in Scotland (so that it dispells the myth we sub them),but our gvt are only giving them more borrowing powers!thats not scots fault!
    And yes the scots will take part of uk debt.and why london had papers released claiming rights to seabed around scotland on the same day the scots parliament was reopened!what are we english really scared of.

    • Shania says:

      They are obviously ‘fighting with every fibre’ Derek, because Scotland are obviously contribute more to the uk than they care to credit us for.

      • shaunthebrummie says:

        and why are jocks so scared to vote yes…grow a pair and vote for it…you’ll be doing us a favour then we can kick out all the undesirable scots on benefits..pensions (public sector)..in prison..in hospitals…..teachers you cant understand..policemen who are corrupt..and the jock politicians..sportsmen (LOL)..and arrogant little shits like fergie…fuck me i could manage MAN UTD being english…but now fergie has gone and the refs actually ref….MOYES another jock has proved to be useless….LOL……..and why do those so brilliant..fantastic anti english football clubs beg and whinge and threaten legal action to join english football…..they aint good enough…and tell the provo lovers and the huns please……

  10. Alexandra Hardie says:

    As a member of the Scottish National Party, I support independence for Scotland. However, this would also mean independence for England, and I support that too. In effect, the present Union is a sort of scaled-down empire, with all the disadvantages, for ordinary people, that are usually associated with empires, such as endless wars.

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  12. Roger says:

    I would be sad for our special union to be dissolved, we would have been one nation if not for the Romans putting up that wall! Ireland got rid of one union and joined a destructive nation hood EU union! Scotland will do the same! Seems silly if that’s the plan. What we have been through and our close heritage we should be coming closer together and not apart. What Irony is that again its an outsider or not an ethnic Scot who leads the SNP Alex Salmond he’s of mixed Mongolian and Jewish gipsy heritage! You wont see that on the news and I doubt most Scots know it either.Just like several other jumped up weasels who want to destroy something perfectly good for their own agenda.

    • Kris says:

      Can you say that you are of pure blood? How ridiculous, no one in Scotland or England, or Wales even are descended from indigenous Scots, English or Welsh.

      • Dan-Macdonald says:

        Ethnicity does matter and pretending to be something else is just not on. If we become mongrels then what’s the point of nationality.Think of not so Bonnie Prince Charlie born on Italy to a Stuart father and a Jewish polish mother who spoke neither Scots or very good in English and that was with a terrible Italian accent. The Israelis want and have voted recently though its been going on since its inception of being a purely ethnic one religious state. Why because they want to protect their heritage and ethnicity. If its good enough for them its good enough for us. But the Jews are the one’s behind our third world immigration so they can weaken us ethnically divide us and then conquer us so they can be the ruling class and no country will every escape their dictatorship! So Alex Solomon can piss off back to Mongolia or one of his other none British heritage lands. By the way 47% of Scotland mostly on the East coast and the lowlands are Anglo Saxon and Vikings! The present Scots language is more old English than Modern Norman English.

    • Neil says:

      But why did the Romans erect walls? They couldn’t control people fighting for their very freedom. It shames me that we were sold out by landlords and merchants for their own ends.

      Personally I have never met an ethnic Scot and I’ve lived all my years in Scotland. I have English blood in my ancestry and it may as well be Turkish or Japanese or whatever, it doesn’t change who I am or what I believe in.

      Salmond was born in Linlithgow, in West Lothian, Scotland to Robert Fyfe Findlay Salmond and Mary Stewart Salmond (née Milne). He is the First Minister in Scotland and will be the First Prime Minister of an independent Scotland for over 300 years.

      • Scot Fucker says:

        The top and bottom of it is that the scots hate the english way more than they can hide…

    • Roger Graham says:

      Quaint little racist rant.

  13. bazeetam says:

    after independece comes, i see engerlund in a sorry state of affairs. basically the uk goverment know that and are shi**ing themselves. if ur average scot were to see these boards it would only make them more determined. the english are gonna play hard ball. we can as well. id cut of all oil and power supplies. id give faslane to the russians, also give them airbases. id lower corporation tax to an extent that companies would flood up here.

  14. Dave says:

    One thing to note though, if England (and Wales and Northern Ireland) constantly subsidise Scotland, why are Westminster so afraid of Scottish succession? This has never really been answered. David Cameron et al only want to keep the Union together so they personally have more power – that’s all people in their positions care about…

    All the chat of “Scotland couldn’t have handled the recession etc” are a complete waste of time. There is no way of proving this either way so it’s a desperate fight for a lost cause and there will be many more scaremongering tactics from the Unionists over the next 3 / 4 years.

    The real people losing out in this are English people not based in London. They have no representation.

    Remember though: a positive election campaign will beat a negative one any day.

  15. William Augustus III says:

    God I just want all those moaning Scots to fuck off back home, they are a defeated small pathetic nation who nobody cares about.Let them have true independence with no money,jobs or support from England and watch them sink into the North Sea.The only place there are more chips than in their fat lazy stomachs is on their shoulders. Without doubt the most racist and depressing country I have ever had the misfortune to visit, so please,please just fuck off.

    • Bigyin says:

      You must have a very sad and lonely life…. I feel sorry for you really! All i can see on this site is moaning racist english people!!! Strange isn’t it….lol

    • aawww wullie the third, we will fuck off as soon as you scrounging fucks let us go but one thing wullie the third what are you going to do about little england being skint no more money from scotland any more. There more chips on you than in a chip shop and you’ve probably got the greasy hair to go with them as well, also what are you scrounging fucks going to do about electricity when your nuclear power stations come off line in the next few years don’t bother with the arms out stretched begging at scotlands door. enjoy yer black outs wullie the third

    • James S says:

      “Defeated”?

      England has been the proverbial Butt-boy of European history. Your ancestors were all royally ****ed by the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, the Norse, the Normans and the French.

      How odd you consider people of another country, who weren’t conquered like you often were, “defeated”?

      I’m aware British history has been skewed to a ridiculous level by the powers that be but jeez man, you need to avail yourself of some information. You may also want to consider a self-help course in personality traits as you’re coming across as a monumental prick.

      Regards,

      • shaunthebrummie says:

        we didn’t need to beat you…….WE BOUGHT YOU…..AND WE’VE GOT THE RECEIPT TO PROVE IT…tried to build an empire yourselves…LOL….you were the starving nation of the west…you had nothing….look at shitland…and no its not a spelling mistake….thats the real reason shits smell….thats why there are so many flies and midges up there…because scotland is indeed a shitty country…..got it…

    • Scottie says:

      Your are a nation of pussy’s no one likes the English not Scotland,Ireland,Wales,France,Germany,Argentina,etc.can’t wait to get away from you filthy English scum.the irony of an English cunt telling me I am from a nation no one likes you got to laugh! As for racist,s we don’t have a bnp or edl.also no jihad being raged against us.as for being supported by the English we give more to your gov than we get back so the case is actually we help support you.as for depressing ever be to Liverpool,Manchester,Newcastle,hull,Bradford,Leeds.etc…case closed.if you ever have the misfortune of being in Glasgow and suddenly feel brave we count meet for a drink.you silly little cunt would love to rag doll you back across the border fuck it I come to you.tory wanker.

      • Graham says:

        Scottie what was the rant all about–Im English but Iam not scum nor do I think all Scots are scum.
        Put your brain in gear and dont let your anger at someone elses ignorance get under your skin.
        My God ,if you were a typical example of a Scot then Scotland will be doomed.
        Fortunately know and many of my friends know Scotlands contribution to the union is out of all proporion to its size.
        Please stop and think.
        If of course you are a flag waving nationalist then that may be a little difficult
        When you post again try please not to use bad language

      • Scottie says:

        I am actully pro uk and feel I let myself down with my last post but William augustus the third just really hit a nerve.we are better as a union side by side. Strenth is unity. Iam educatied enough to no the benefit of unity yes we in Scotland May put a lot in money wise but get the benefit in other ways.if I had to leave Scotland then I would want to live in England as I am proud to be british.fuck look what we have done together pretty shit hot.we in Scotland have a huge fight against these yes fuckers and would like our English brothers and sisters along side us in unity.chances are our grandfathers fought along side each other in all the wars.i respect the fact if England play Scotland at sport the English will want England to win as the scots want Scotland to win but when it has mattered we have stood together.

      • Graham says:

        Scottie well said.The problem with anger it clouds the judgement.
        I am very pro Scots– something from my army days in the 1950s
        Mr Salmond is a consumate polotician,he tweaks peoples emotions then denies he does it for that reason.He reminds me of another awful politician–Mitt Romney–not that I like many politicians.
        Scottie it is strage that the very people you do not want in power are the ones thst seek it.
        Please take no notice of the idiots south of the border–emotion driven..
        Whatever happens in the referendum I wish all well,but if it is a decisive yes then I have had my last visit north–having already recieved abuse.
        Mind you if the vote is yes I hope you Scots will still contribute that essence we need.
        You take care and keep cool.
        PS admire anyone who admits a fault

  16. So there you have it: there’s only two types of people William can’t stand – racists, and those stupid, greasy, pathetic, lazy, subsidy-junkie Scots.

  17. Pingback: The complete “Wages of Scottish independence” | England calling

  18. Pingback: The complete “Wages of Scottish indpendence” « Living In A Madhouse

  19. Pingback: The complete “The wages of Scottish Independence” « Living In A Madhouse

  20. Pingback: Scottish independence? Yes, but only on these terms | The Libertarian Alliance: BLOG

  21. Mr Patriotism says:

    I live in Edinburgh (I’m not Scottish though) and have neve experience any problems with xenophobia… but then I don’t frequent the housing schemes and council estates where the great unwashed ignorant live.

    I do however think a referendum will be a good thing, and the sooner the better. If Scotland goes separate, then great. And when everyone in Scotlands live change in absolutely no way whatsoever they may possibly realise that it had nothing to do with the UK, that is just life, and that it is what YOU make of it. It is far too easy to blame other people for your own crappy lives (everyone one around the world does this, i’m not picking on anyone here). Also, we will of course see a North South divide become apparent within Scotland, the north of Scotland hate the ‘poofters’ down in the south and don’t even consider them real Scots.

    If Scotland does not separate then hopefully the minority will just shut the fu¢k up once and for all.

    Now, I said I wasn’t scottish, but I didn’t say where I was from. The reason for this (and my Scottish wife has the same beliefs as me on this) is that what is the point in patriotism? You did not in any way have any say in where you were going to be born. Chance is the only thing you can be proud of!

    It’s like Bill Hicks said. get rid of flags with stars and stripes and have pictures of our parents fu¢king. Cos that is what it comes down to at the end of the day. Your parents fu¢ked in a particular country and that somehow defines you for the rest of your life.

    Well I for one am myself first and foremost, where I was born is irrelevant.

  22. drpaul2000 says:

    To Robert Henderson: Your list points are succintly and worth reading put but may I advise that starting off a post with “SNP (Scots Numpty Party)” rather serves to immediately alienate any folk like me who voted SNP at the recent elections but aren’t sure about independence.

    The hardest thing about the debate leading to the referendum is going to trying to find balanced and rational takes on the question. don’t make it harder for people to read your arguments by

    • drpaul – Never underestimate the power of a satirical name. Little if anything is lost using it while much is gained. Imagine the Salmond’s rage if it gained currency.

      Few thoroughly committed to the Scottish Numpty Party will ever be persuaded that independence would be the hideously reckless adventure that it is. Some, SNP voters such as yourself may be persuaded, but it is very improbable that you would make your decsion based on a satirical gibe. You will decide according to the facts which I have provided in depth on the blog.

      Outside of the SNP, their opponents and the undecided voters will find Scotch Numpty Party amusing at worst and at best will see it as succinctly summarising what the SNP is, namely, a party whose only raison d’etre is the chasing of a dream as misguided as the Darien fiasco.

  23. Dougie Douglas says:

    robert henderson = ball bag

    • A Scotch brain at full pelt….

      • Shania says:

        *scots And I don’t think you can say anything about intelligence when you have spelling like that. There’s also a lot more I can correct in that comment but I don’t want to waste my breath on ignorant racists.

    • laugh@racists says:

      Robert and his mates come from Angerland they are Angerlish. It is their belief that they can put down any race other than those who reside in Angerland.

  24. james speirs says:

    I have a Scottish brain Robert and having read your article I was about to pick the numerous holes in it.

    However, from the “quality” of the responses and the attitude shown by you and your fellow deluded on here it is clearly not worth it. You and many on here are a disgrace and I am sad that people like you taint the good people of England.

    Just to help you though: if Scotland chooses independence, we are not leaving the UK, we are ending it. It no longer exists as a legal entity. You might want to change the wording therefore in the diatribe you wrote above.

    James S

  25. James S says:

    Ah,
    another insult.
    Nice.

    I have frequented many websites since the SNP won on May 5th having been a staunch “Unionist” all of my life. I tasked myself with finding what is truth and what is dogma on both sides of the debate.

    One of them is Newsnet, a site much like this, but where any “anti-English” nonsense is put down and frankly pitied. The vast majority are well-educated with much to offer. The farnkly vile language and atitude on here from your fellow Engs is shameful for what appears to, on the outside at least, be a similar and worthwhile source of an alternative opinion. These “numpties” as you call them seem far wiser and far nicer than the sad excuses for human beings I see on here.

    Maybe you should grow up a bit before entering into debate that has significance for all of us.

    James S

  26. Matt says:

    On the subject of Scotland’s oil, you are ignoring the new oil fields off the north west coast of Scotland which are not yet on stream. The Foinaven and the Shehalion fields are bigger that all of the North sea reserves put together. Goodbye the sponging English Benefit scroungers

    • shaunthebrummie says:

      say hello to all the bastard scots kicked out of england…and all the spawn…and i mean all generations…starting with CAMERTWAT….

  27. James S says:

    Don’t lower yourself to insults friend. Although you are correct in principle. Employment is higher in Scotland than England and unemployment is lower. Seems strange why the Scots are called “doleys” and “scroungers” by the English media and the lesser contributors on sites like these when the reverse is true and easily identifiable.

    Regarding North Sea oil, there is at least another 40 years of substantial production and possibly many more with the new technologies coming onstream, able to develop fields that are harder to get to. Peak oil seems to have passed and those nations with oil will have a far greater say in the world in the coming decades than those without.

    Remember, making claims of reduced oil receipts etc simply serves to scare the undecided in Scotland so Westminster can keep their hands on it for longer. The fact it has little or no basis seems to be conveniently lost by our Southern friends, presumably for reasons consistent with the negative sentiment on here. With oil prices expecting to increase markedly over the next half century due to increasing global demand, our children and grandchildren should be fine without the sinkhole of Westminster.

    Remember, we’ll get approximately 10% of everything that is owned by the UK which, according to those still with their heads in the sand, is worth more than the 10% of the UK debt we’ll be obliged to take with us. So oil, although very important, is not the be all and end all. 22% of all UK corporation tax receipts eminate from Scottish territory and those will no longer head for Westminster and disappear like they do now, they will be credited to a Scottish exchequor and be available to those who earn it rather than those who consume it in the South East.

    • The only reason Scotch employment is higher is because they use the vast English annual subsidy to maintain public sector jobs; that sustains what little private employment there is plus Gordon Brown allowed Salmond to defer his spending cuts for a year.

      As for Scotland getting 10% of everything, the only thing they are likely to get 10% of is the UK national debt.

  28. James S says:

    What “vast” annual subsidy?

    Define.

  29. The £1,600 per capita higher Treasury paymment to Scotland compared with England, the export of English jobs to Scotland, the disproportionately large number of public service jobs in Scotland (over 60% of the Scotch GDP comes ftrom this), the generally higher benefit payments in Scotland…. RH

  30. James S says:

    Ah, the usual rhetoric.

    A subsidy is when one receives more than one gives. You only mention spending.

    You do not mention how much is given.

    Interesting ploy Robert. Is this why the leader of the Conservatives in Scotland Annabel Goldie had to change her speech to the Conservative Party Conference on Tueday? Where she was due to be the first Unionist senior politician to admit on the big stage that the gravy train runs south? Why would she be so pressurised into changing her speech? Similar reason?

    The government’s GERS report (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland), when comparing Total public sector revenue versus Total public sector expenditure, cites the following in terms of UK GDP:

    2005/6 – Income 9.8%, expenditure 9.5%
    2006/7 – Income 9.6%, expenditure 9.6%
    2007/8 – income 9.5%, expenditure 9.6%
    2008/9 – income 10.3%, expenditure 9.4%
    2009/10 – income 9.4%, expenditure 9.3%

    I fail to find this vast subsidy. Indeed, it would seem the Scottish economy has been in surplus and subsidising England and the rest of the UK while Westminster were destroying the UK economy with mindless Debtonomics. The same reports show the Scottish economy was one of the few in Europe with a consistent surplus which brings into question whether Scotland should bear any of the catastrophic debt the English/UK parliament has imposed upon it’s people in recent years.

    It’s also interesting that in one of your articles you question whether an independent Scotland could service the “massive debt” it will take with her if she dissolves the UK. You fail to consider the mind-boggling debt that will be left to the English who will no longer be able to use much of the North Sea as collateral for further borrowing that they so desperately need.

    S&P interestingly said that if Scotland were to end the UK, her credit rating would most likely fall by one unit to AAB+ but once the uncertainty and mechanics are sorted out she would most likely return to a AAA footing due to her substantial offshore and onshore assets yet to be harvested. They also said that England/rumpUK would similarly be downgraded due to the loss of the same resources with little prospect of achieving the top score in the short to medium term.

    I suggest you do a little research into just how precarious the position is for England. Currently the UK has the second highest debt figure in the world. According to the CIA’s “World Fact Book”, as at 30th June 2010, the UK has a fraction under 9 trillion dollars in external debt. This represents $144,338 debt per person or 400% of GDP. No doubt you will realise that this situation will have worsened considerably since June 2010. These figures do not take account of the UK’s unfunded state pension debts, unfunded state-sector pension debts or PFI, which must also be added and the most recent estimates are as high as 4 trillion. Considering the total value of the UK is estimated to be around 7 trillion, it would suggest that the UK is bankrupt.

    If you look at the UK form a balance of trade perspective, the outlook is indeed grim. The IMF list the UK at 186 out of 191 listed nations with a balance of trade deficit of 40 billions for 2010. Greece, Portugal and Ireland are above us in the list.

    What’s really interesting about their data however is that Norway, a country of 5 million people like Scotland, who were a relativey poor country before the discovery of oil, who share roughly 50% of the resources of the North Sea with Scotland (even after the 1999 “land grab” by Westminster where 6000 sq. miles of Scottish territory became English) were fifth highest on that list with a trade surplus of 50 billions in 2010.

    Again I fail to find any “Union Dividend” for Scotland being evident. On paper it looks like being in a Union with England has been disasterous considering the poor state she finds herself in within the UK where the South has become fat on debt and the regions have become poorer. Ironic, considering they are expected to foot the bill. Of course there was a golden period for the Union, where both nations prospered, but since the war the black hole that is London and the South have asset stripped and squandered potential and what I find remarkable is that despite this, Scotland is still economically viable.

    The issue we Scots face with regard to England is not about greed nor any sense of injustice but simply a choice concerning whether or not we hang on to a sinking ship or jump in the lifeboat our natural wealth provides.

    England is in trouble and the sooner you realise your time would be better spent solving your own problems the better, rather than perpetually undermining your cousins across the border.

    Regards

  31. Jfen says:

    As a British man, (I consider myself British, not English), but also as a Conservative I can see pros and cons to scottish independance, on the one hand, my party of choice would almost definately have a possible safe majority. However, my worry is that the UK (it wouldn’t be that anymore) would lose alot of politcal clout, among the fact that our great nation would break apart because of some pseudo-patriotic cause.

    Also, if Scotland is 60% publicly employed, what would happen to these jobs should the union end?

    I see no oppression on the ‘Scottish’ people, nor do I see any restrictions on their freedoms, which by all means should validate a people’s claims for independance, but I see no social injustice, only some sort of apparant economical injustice which in my eyes has no grounds.

    I was having a discussion with an SNP supporter who noted that England got the high speed railway over Scotland, I argued that England has 10x the population of Scotland and that London has a larger population than the entirety of Scotland, so by logic and equality, was this not the right decision.

    It would make me deeply saddened if the union ended, I would feel like I have lost part of my cultural heritage.

  32. james speirs says:

    Jfen,

    Thankyou for your polite contribution to this thread. Many seem xenophobic in the extreme here which is a shame as we’ll still have a close social union irrespective of whether or not the parliamentary Union ends.

    I can see why you’re torn between the clear advantage your party of choice would have in England should the Union end and the loss of clout on a world stage and possibly of some cultural heritage.

    My personal experience of the issue is this: up until 5th May when the SNP won their almost miraculous majority (the Scots parlaiment was specifically set up so that couldn’t happen) I was a staunch supporter of the Union but the victory forced me, like many, to seriously look at the issue. After months of reading about the subject, I genuinely cannot find a single reason for the Union to continue. It’s undoubtedly been bad for Scotland for two, maybe three generations now with the relentless centralisation to the South East and the wholesale de-industrialisation of the country. Our best talent has headed South and continues to do so and like many of the other regions of the UK, those that remain are less industrially active, older and hence why in the regions you see a higher proportion of public sector spend. That is a fact any new Scottish government will clearly have to address.

    What is lost on many down south and indeed myself until recently is the true nature of the economic relationship between the coutries. The GERS report shows the net position of Scotland within the UK. Even though the annual reports are still far from perfect in terms of accounting for all of the income that would head for any Scottish exchequor, it has clearly shown that Scotland is one of the few countries in Europe able to balance it’s books. In 5 of the last 6 reports, Scotland showed a small surplus with only 09/10 showing a net deficit of 6 billions. 6 billions is 1/100th of the debt accrued South of the border. during the same period.

    To give you an example of how skewed even these figures are, the GERS report only allocates a per capita share of corporation tax receipts to Scotland (8.6%). Yet the Government’s own figures have shown that year on year 20-22% of all corporation tax receipts in the UK come from Scottish territory. Obviously, all CT is paid into the London exchequor but upon separation, a fifth of all CT will be paid into Edinburgh. This fact is not reflected in GERS nor in any other figures you’ll see reported in the press but would be an absolute certainty if the Union ends unless somehow London lays claim to Aberdeen, the Orkneys etc. Also, most large companies operating from Scotland itself or Scottish territory in the case of oil/gas companies base their head offices in London and as such have ALL their corporation tax credited to that region and not Scotland. Another example is Trident where the entire cost is levied against just 8.6% of the population (guess where). This is why it’s pityful the Mail and Sun attack the Scots in the way they do as Scotland pays more than it’s fair share into the Union which is a fact all the parties other than the SNP will tell you as they are all Unionist.

    If Scotland was such a drain on those south of the border, why has Westminser tried every dirty trick in the book to retain the Union? The Conservative govt in the early 70s commissioned a report on the impact of oil on Scottish separatism. It was called the McCrone report after the Chief Economist who wrote it. In it, he clearly states: “An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses would be so large as to be embarrassing”; “Scotland’s currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor.”; “Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and this situation could last for a very long time into the future.” THIS DOCUMENT WAS CLASSIFIED UNDER THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT BY 6 PRIME MINISTERS IN WESTMINSTER. Considering there is at least 40 years of current level production still to come, with an increasing demand for oil, Scotland would be very well placed to tackle it’s problems and run consistent budget surpluses. This is why I said earlier in the thread that the choice the Scots have to make is whether they hang on to a sinking ship or jump into the lifeboat their offshore (and increasingly onshore) resources provide. Norway has 5 million people like Scotland, similar resources and is somewhere between the second and fifth richest nation on Earth per capita yet they started from the same starting point in the early 70s as Scotland. Union dividend? Where?

    Scotland declined like the other peripheral regions in England due to the London-centric view of Westminster which has since proven to be an unmitigated disaster. The UK is the second most indebted nation in the world after the US with a struggling service based economy. It can only head south in the economic rankings so to be fair Jfen, the vast majority of Scottish people are not showing some notion of a “pseudo-patriotic” cause, they are simply having the blinkers removed from their eyes.

    Scotland is still a nation in it’s own right, enshrined in the Act of Union itself, and despite what alot on here will tell you it is entirely within it’s rights to end the Treaty and walk away. It’ll be sad for alot of reasons but as a Scotsman who’s witnessed the decline and asset stripping of the country for the past 50 years, it will ultimately be for the best. Scotland will still need England (for trade) and England will still need Scotland (for power, fuel and water) so once the shouting has finished I believe we’ll end up like the Scandinavians countries who, after divorce, most definitely still look out for each other and are all better off for finding their own national identities once again.

    Regards.

    • Jfen says:

      I agree with many of your points, however, we are, on the world stage at least Stronger together, and I recognise the effects on the north and Scotland from when Thatcher ‘Modernised’ our industry, and this is something urgent the UK needs to look at in able to be a more stable country.

      I do not think Scottish independance would be best for the British isles in the long term,
      and I beleive the Independance movement is quite reactionary in that it looks at what the UK can do for Scotland, rather than what Scotland can do for the UK. And this isn’t me saying saying Scotland should not get it’s share, what I mean the UK should be indentified by itself, not by the 4 states we have.

      It also worries me of the slight Anglophobic sentiment that some of the SNP ministers have.

  33. james speirs says:

    p.s. an edit function would be great to correct mistypes and errors. Thanks. 😉

  34. james speirs says:

    I recognise completely the point you make in the first sentence about us being stronger together. I have said the same for years. But the UK as we know it is in a steep decline and wherever you’re from on these islands we cannot and must not ignore that. Reagonomics and Thatcherism (I was a fan of hers) has continued in various forms since the early 80s and sadly has proved to have brought the UK and the US to the brink. Debtonomics and the free market of greed simply hasn’t worked while leaving our country bereft of diversity through it’s de-industrialisation and centralising policies. It’s hard to see any way out of the situation either as a service-based economy will always have a trade deficit which erodes wealth.

    I live in England just now and have family here but I do wish to return to the Highlands with my younger ones (for quality of life rather than financial reasons) hence my interest in this issue. What vexes me is that my generation will be the first generation to leave the next generation in a worse position. The debt that we will be leaving to them is barely fathomable. Both Scotland and England need to totally reinvent themselves if they are going to stop the rot and compete in this new world order. The months of homework now have shown me clearly that their interests would be best served in an independant Scotland as I have seen no desire whatsoever from any of the mainstream parties at Westminster to tackle the deep seated structural problems we have. To be frank, the UK needs a huge kick up the backside but I can’t see any of the establishment being willing to do this. You may see this as a somewhat selfish choice but if I get the chance I will be opting for what I believe will be the best course for the younger ones as Scotland is small in population but large in resources onshore and offshore. I cannot stand by while London and the South line their pockets at my kids’ and grandkids’ expense and this equally applies for the vast majority of the English too.

    Ever increasingly I see the people around me in England get more frustrated with Westminster. The same old arguments and rhetoric. The English are completely disenfranchised by the current system whereupon every five years we elect what is no more than an elective dictatorship. The endless ramblings in the Commons and Lords are utterly meaningless when the whip system ensures the wishes of the PM and his closest cabinet members are passed without question. The reason the SNP were so successful in May was not because most wanted independence at that time, nor was it just an anti-Labour vote but because the SNP had successfully run a minority administration in Scotland and demonstrated a Scotland-focussed positive agenda. This was against the backdrop of the entire television and press media being 100% against them – remarkable. The Scots, like many in England, felt disenfranchised and voted for what could end up being a sea-change. The author of this article refers to the SNP as the Scottish Numpty Party yet what they achieved was unique in British politics. I hear all the time from those around me that they wish there was an equivalent mainstream party down here that stands up for the English like Alex Salmond does up there. I agree with them 100%. UK/England needs modernising and fast and the two-party set up is proving destructive as they continually undermine each other for the sake of it. Too many people in ermine getting fat while being devoid of any idea of what’s going on outside London.

    Regards

  35. Tom Cochrane says:

    RE: James Spiers – I had to post a comment.

    I am a Scot who likes to follow the discussion on Scottish nationalism and the dramatic rise of the SNP. I am always fascinated in how it is presented by the UK media and in particular by the blogosphere.

    In the last Hollyrood election I voted SNP for the first time ever – previously being a Labour party member of some 20 years. I didn’t vote for the ‘numpties’ out of some indefinable sense of patriotic exuberance. They had in their previous minority tenure in Hollyrood proved themselves to be the most competent, trustworthy and positive party.

    The determined and negative presentation of Scotland and Scots in large swathes of the media (and on this blog) as whinging, scroungers, subsidy junkies, soap dodging et cetera is just so childish and ill informed. It is insulting only in its intent not in its execution.

    It is common currency in any discussion on Scottish politics that as a region/nation we pay in more than we get out – (an indisputable fact). The constant hum of these lies is worthy of Goebbels and indeed it seems to be working in England, where it isn’t really needed.
    In Scotland where it is intended it has little or no effect, other – that is – to regard UK politicians as negative, desperate liars.

    It is really no surprise that the SNP has risen so dramatically.
    Scottish Nupty Party?
    Really?

  36. Paul says:

    I am an Asian living in Asia. I am extremely puzzled why people in UK want to break up their country! As it is UK is already a relatively small nation both in terms of population and land size, compared to USA, Russia, China, India, Brazil etc. Your economic and political influence in the world has in fact declined substantially over the years because of your comparative decrease in size. Even France and Germany are now viewed higher than you economically, and have also on the way of eclipsing you politically, if they have not already done so; let alone compared to the much bigger Asian countries of China, Japan and even Korea in near future.

    Scotland and England; you all basically speak the same language, and of the same ethnicity. What is there to fight over. Even EU now is trying to forge fiscal and further union among very different nations and peoples. Why is Scotland and England doing the reverse then when the people are very much similar. In my mind, even Republic of Ireland should naturallybe in UK.

    Just my puzzlement as an outsider from Asia.

  37. Simon Grey says:

    No No No let Scotland go. Highest unemployment rate in the UK, worst health rate, most subsidised. It’s a myth how much oil and gas ‘lies’ in ‘Scottish’ waters. Massive benifit to England as less chance of a Labour goverment losing Scotlands 17% of Westminster seats vs 8% of the population which are mostly Labour. Instinitutionalised gerrymandering since year dot. In the long term i’d prefer the banks over the oil anyday (anyone whose been to a casino knows the bank allways wins). I should know I worked at RBS for 6 years and no not behind the till. While we’re at it Wales and NI can disapear too.

  38. Jay Zouch says:

    What a mess this would cause. Scotland has done as well from England as vise-versa and now both countries would become weaker.

    • Simon Grey says:

      I agree it’s going to be horrible, messy and awful. Leading to a load of ridiculous re-emergence of long redundant rivalries and over romantised ideals of yore. It should be dead and buried in this the year of our lord 2012

  39. Simon Grey says:

    You lot are priceless, the banks HBOS/RBS are Scottish when they are doing well. They’re London run and regulated now they’ve f**d everything up. I used to work for RBS it’s a Scottish bank, it has an office in Edinburgh with thousands of people working in it, and it’s the HEAD office. Check it out I’m not making this up.
    Source :
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/7121112/RBS-is-considering-sale-of-flagship-headquarters-Gogarburn.html
    BTW the banks screwed up under a Scottish Chancelor. The receipts from oil won’t prop up a nation with the worst health issues in Europe, the most subsidised small country, a 60% public sector most of the job’s of which will revert back to England, Student’s will have to start paying for their fees. The UK’s tax receipts were £447 Billion last year the portion that comes from NSO was £6bn then England’s claim on that will be substantial approx 30-40% being as most of the Gas is in a debatable/grey area.
    Source:
    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_receipts/tax-nic-receipts-info-analysis.pdf
    Then the question what money are you going to chose? It can only be the a Scottish currency or the Euro as any keeping the UK pound will have interest rates set by the rest of the UK. There is absolutely no way given what’s gone on in Southern Europe recently that this will be acceptable as recent History shows.
    Don’t get me wrong I’ve got nothing against Scotland many an intellectual/inventor/artist/poet has come from there and the people are great. I just think it’s ridiculous we joined together because we couldn’t stand up against the rest of the world and we’d wasted so much energy fighting each other. Now for some crackpot reason we want to split up? Look at the other small countries that have perished under the Euro? Greece 22% unemployment. The UK may be in Sh1t at the moment but that’s no reason to break up 200 years of history because of some ridiculous romantic notion
    I think if the UK devolves it should do so completely Wales can stick to farming, NI can become part of Ireland’s Police and Security expenditure costs for a change. England can happily go it alone.
    If anyone is open to some intelligent debate then please reply…

  40. Simon Grey says:

    Reading these comments it’s going to be a very bitter divorce, the kids won’t be happy.

  41. James S says:

    Simon Grey,

    You wrote: “If anyone is open to some intelligent debate then please reply…”

    I am sure we would if we found any evidence of it.

    Regards,

    James S

  42. John Bull says:

    Looking from the outside and having lived in England and Scotland, I have nothing but contempt for the racist individuals that reside in England, Finally the morons who killed the young black man when I was in the UK have been arrested, only took 20 years.

    Let Scotland have their vote and stop being childish. You will note that the polls say that the majority of Scotland don’t want independence and see themselves as British.

    However reviewing the comments from the mindless uneducated morons who reside in England (I don’t call them English) because you are the moronic minority that reside in England and I don’t think you represent the thinking educated Englishman or woman. It might be why so many are escaping the “Great England” to emigrate and get away from the evil rioting, thieving. and just nasty people that we see on the international news. You are the ones that pride yourself on the idiotic moronic accent. I aint bovvered me ole mucker!!!!!

    History will tell you that it is the condescending attitude you have for anyone that is not English that makes people dislike you, every country that you have delt with in building the empire wanted or still wants independence, you are nasty, judgemental, childish and don’t possess a national identity that you can be proud of.

    If you represent the English psyche then I am glad my parents decided to leave old blighty for a better life away from such a broken society

    A bit of advice, Get over it; the only thing left of the empire is a Pyre of debt, uneducated morons, racism, and waning bully ability!!!!!! Grow up and stop angering people of different nationality!!!!! You would be better off to be friendly and understanding to your neighbours or friends rather than putting them down all the time with the obnoxious attitude that you are better than them, this is why they resent you.

    I feel sorry for N Ireland and Wales if the Scottish do vote to leave the union. They will be next to face the racist and nasty psyche of the moron. .

    • 1. What nationality do you consider yourself to be?

      2. Which country do you live in?

      3. As for the Stephen Lawrence case, if you think that was a fair trial with a correct outcome you do not understand the nature of evidence. See https://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/stephen-lawrence-gary-dobson-david-norris-and-a-political-trial/

      4. Please learn that abuse and assertion does not count as argument.

    • dave says:

      John, you are joking! Mindless racists and morons that live in England!

      If I was you I would look closer to home for that statement, and as for uneducated morons again it shows how one sided the Scottish always are, look at all the comments on this site and how can you come up with those conclusions. It’s pathetic.

      Both sides are as bad as each other at best at worst the Scottish are showing there hatred of English, the English are indifferent to you.

      And lets get one thing straight in the polls the Scottish are to scared to vote for independence, the English are not, the English public want independence the Scottish people do not.

      Why is this? What are you public afraid of? As this how the Scottish always portray this the English, as running scared of Scotland independence, they are quivering with fear over the possible independence of Scotland. Well we are not the polls show the Scottish Public are to scared to vote for independence the English would have it now.

      We would love to be given the opportunity to vote and you would see how much we fear independence.

      We don’t get choice if we did we would be an independent England.

  43. John Bull says:

    Robert
    I am not sure I would like to tell you my nationality and face the torrent of racist and childish rhetoric.

    I note that reading the facts as quoted by qualified sources on this blog that your only argument is to quote erroneous facts and throw abuse usually in numbered format for some reason.. You must work for the government. I only hope that you and Simon Grey are not typical of the English people and that the English do allow the vote to take place and let Scotland to confirm their commitment or decide whether or not to leave the Union, as is their right. I have been watching the English News Papers on line and no surprise the same old scummy reporting. Not only are they not brought to heal for the cowardly spying and intrusion but they now make things worse by childish reporting on the vote. Is this your educated Englishman and women working in London. No wonder things are looking bad nasty nasty people.

    I must say you sound like a cheating bullying husband who has now found out his wife is leaving him for the years of neglect and abuse and looking for something better, jealousy may be getting the better of you.

    So far reading the blog I see educated argument on the side of proving Scotland’s worth and contribution to the Union and all I see from you and Simons end is a load of personal ill founded nonsense.

    I would say the score is 3 to Scotland for contributing more to the Welfare of Britain, and England gets a big fat 0.

    • JFen says:

      Being British I take grave offence to those statements. You seem to criticise Robert for his opinion. Not only that but you generalise widely, then you codemn him for stating an opinion while insulting him and me yourself. You also seem to be very ignorant on the wide range of opinions eminating from the UK. And you make the assumption all the people in England are all 19th century jingo-imperialists who would deny democracy to the people in Scotland.

      I also get the jist that you somehow think being proud of, and wanting your country to be prosperous somehow means you wish every other country and it’s peoples to fail miserably. I can assure you this is not the case.

      While Robert sometimes does give in to the occational emotional insult/statement, You seem to be pissing in wind in the fact your arguement consists of calling Robert and the English Vile and Racist, You then disregard anyone who may share his views as uneducated morons.

      So I put it to you, that you are the ignorant one, whom is quite prejudiced.

      P.S – Please take a good hard look at your self-hating attitude and realise that the past is the past and there is noone alive today who you can blame for any of the Empire’s wrongdoings.

      • John Bull says:

        Oh me oh my, a British person is gravely offended, what a calamity!!! The rest of thw world wont be able to sleep tonight!!!!!!!

        People in glass houses should not throw stones!!!! Take a look at the right hand side of the recent copmments on this site, it is all racist or redneck tripe, we want more guns or what a travesty that the police are prosecuting a bunh of murdering cowards.…… You might want to take a good hard look at your self in the mirror and think about that when you so freely support the nonsense in this blog in regards to what you three (yourself, Simon and Robert) are espousing “we want our toys such as the military plans, tanks and ships back, but we want you to pay the debt for those – Scotland!!!. Military hardware once purchased is a financial liability it is not a financial asset, you are never going to sell it. It has been proven that Scotland pays more per individual than England e.g. 22% of Corporate tax with only 10 percent of the population, not to mention the huge amount of oil revenue it contributes. You are stll living in the Eighties where the Government made Glasgow into what it was – a low ecomonic and depressed society. It is in a cultural boom now. Now you talk of stealing land from Scotland because you want that too. Get a grip……, bully tactics don’t work anymore there is no empire, international law stipulates ownership of state EEZ’s.

        Think about the offence you cause to the nation of Scotland, but who seem to be the biggest contributors to your union and in history, they have been the very cultural and inventive people of the Union, they have invented many of the things the developed world takes for granted. But what do you offer? Whinge and throw your toys out of the cot and demand your ball back because you can’t score a goal.

        As I say again let them in peace to have a vote to reaffirm their commitment to the Union or let them decide to go it alone. They must be a very strong people to put up with such silly childish behaviour being expressed by you and your cohorts and the tripe that spews out of the English papers…

        I did not call all English morons or racists, I called Robert and Simon one but you also fit the bill as well.

    • OK. I gave you a chance to do more than assert and you failed comprehensively. You do not deserve further reply. By all means keep posting, but remember, every time you do it will merely show your intellectual inadequacy.

    • dave says:

      John the first reply on this thread was from a Scots man and it read:

      go for it, if it gets rid of you obnoquios English thieving b a s t a r d s.

      Firstly is that the way to start the Reponses? So stop trying to be self Righteous about the merits of Scottish posters while trying to portray the English as racists whilst hiding behind the defence of being a poor little victim of racism as it pathetic.

      Go in peace we do not care, WE ARE NOT TRYING TO STOP YOU its in your head, we do not hate you, if we meet we don’t instantly start fighting do we!! We have a rivalry, banter is the worst it gets it rarely spills into violence, does that sound like hate to you, we all (the UK nations) simply don’t care.

      Also do you think anyone who matters believes what is said in the papers? Grow up.

  44. rob parkes says:

    If you want independence, I hope the hundreds of lazy no good piss artist/druggie scots that have infected my town of Blackpool will fuck off back…..I can’tblame them for wanting to be here, everytime I have been to Scotland it has pissed down with rain, the place is grey grey grey, and the “food” is not fit for pigs.

  45. Laugh@racists says:

    Keep on going racist, you are showing your true national colours. England seems to be full of the lowest of the low and a bunch of uneducated buffoons. No wonder everyone wants to escape your bitterness and racist redneck beliefs. If you represent the typical English person, I hope no more of you come to my countryl!!!! Believe me many are emigrating and it must be because of people like you. We dont need your type here so please stay right where you are, your country deserves to reatain the likes of you. The best thing my parents did was leave England to get away from the likes of you!!!!

    Ha Ha what a joke the Englishman has become!!!!.

    • dave says:

      The Scots are the most racist nation of the UK this is a fact.

      Not just to the other nations of the UK but to any one of a different religion or colour your comments about the English are flawed if you think otherwise.

      Go to any inner city estate in Glasgow and find me non racist and I will eat my own face live over an internet feed for charity to try and portray the English as a nation of racists is laughable we are the most tolerant of all the UK nations.

      To start with you all have an inbred hatred of us we don’t have that of you what does that say about you, the English just simply don’t care we are as much a victim as you if that is how you feel we have less rights than the other UK nations.

      So stick your typical rhetoric bull shit up your arse mate.

      We don’t hate you we don’t sit around all day talking about you as we are not obsessed you are it is so easy to blame everything on the English who will you blame when you are on your own.

      Racism between the home nations does not exist we have banter we take the piss out of each other, that is not racism, I have never met a home nations person who takes any banter personally to say otherwise shows how racist you actually are!!!

      The Scots are more racist to other religions and nations of the world than any other I know.

  46. alexander clements says:

    reading some of the comments from both sides of hadrians wall makes me sad i dont want

    our UNITED KINGDOM to break up let all of us work together and rebuild this wonderful island

    there is an old saying united we stand divided we fall

  47. David Thomson says:

    Robert, Simon and jFen’s argument toward independence has almost little fact or truth at all. As has already been said, poor and bias journalism south of the border fills you’re heads with nonsense. The negative campaign is not doing the UK Government any good at all. It simply enrages the people of England under false information that they subsidies us and just reminds the people of Scotland they will lie to our faces in order to save themselves. I am a 20 year old Scotsman and feel i have to say that, there is not a hatred toward the English people from Scotland(A rivalry? Yes!). It is in fact the opposite. Posts from Robert, Simon and jFen blame Scotland for England’s suffering but without the Scots(Who England forced to join the union by blocking our trade routes and bribing Scotland’s land owners) the United Kingdom wouldn’t have accomplished everything she did. The UK now doesn’t work, it spends more than it makes. If it were a company in the same situation then it would cease to exist. Scotland can escape the Union and facts and figures prove we can flourish as an Independent nation. English scaremongering tactics have been proved wrong. Personally i think Westminster should stay out of it! Its our Country, Our Decision.

    Another old saying, ” We’re bought and sold for English Gold, Sic a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.”

    Regards,
    Davie Thomson

  48. Bolshie says:

    We can be fed unlimited amounts of information and percentages on who pays what, how much, who owns the oil, what it’s worth etc But the real issue is about having decisions affecting Scottish citizens made in an independent country. We can make comparisons all day long with other countries like Norway for obvious reasons and small countries like Belgium, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Iceland et al but it’s pointless. This isn’t a break up for racist or nationalistic reasons, its quite simply one of the signatories of the Act of Union in 1707 reverting back to their status prior to that Act coming into being. There is nothing sinister in this, it happens and continues to happen all over the world. Czechoslovakia being a recent example. Why wouldn’t England and Scotland be able to function as cross border independent countries like Canada and the US ,Norway and Sweden or Spain and Portugal? There is no question whatsoever that Scotland can and will function as an independent country as many others do so no amont of scaremongering will make any difference. Slainte!

  49. colin says:

    how sad, and yes it is saddening that so many of you spout your vitriol with little understanding of the facts.
    have a look at the darien scheme,a scottish attempt at colonisation,off they went with ships laden with oats,blankets,sheep and all the sundry things to establish a colony in the new world, to panama…sheep dont do all that well in the tropics,oats wont grow in the humidity and a woollen kilt is the last thing you would want
    not surprising most of these intrepid colonists died,the whole venture cost the scottish economy dearly with its failure,almost a fifth of the money in scotland at the time was tied up in this ill conceived venture
    it took english money to bail the scots out of this mess (shades of rbs??)
    this weakening of the scottish economy was a major factor in them having to accept the act of union in 1707
    but all that said if the scotish nation wants to independence why not let them have a referendum?
    seems there might be the slight matter of some money to be paid in respect of past debts
    having grown up in Canada i have seen all this before with the French element in Quebec being quite vocal about secession,they had their vote,more than one actually and surprise? no was the majority answer
    if the scotts want independence then fine,feelings are running high in england at the moment

    as santa ana once said
    ‘those who fail to study history are,merely,doomed to repeat it’

  50. Blame it on Canada says:

    Ha Ha Canada!!!! Santa ana is a county seat in Orange county California, Do you mean Santa Claus or George Santayana?

    If you mean George Santyana he actually said “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”. Once again poorly researched rhetoric that comes out of fools and is incorrect!!!!! Much the same as your silly explanation. Australia is a very hot country that sits on the tropic of Capricorn and it is very hot and tropical.. They have one of the greatest populations of sheep in the world and I am sure the Scots could have taken thier Kilts off if they wanted????

  51. bush says:

    HA HA HA….Now the britishers dividing themselves up…. Easy for the French to f**k them now!!!!

  52. Pingback: It must be no to Devomax | England calling

  53. greg says:

    What a sad lttle site, with nothing but brainwashed bluster in it… You really are wrong in what you say – all of it, 3 small examples of where you have it wrong include: the debt the remainder of Britain owes scotland for its massive military contribution over the centuries and where to this day, it takes half a million less citizens in scotland to create a battalion. England has virtually no water supplies, where does that come from free of charge? And… The UK only exists due to the union of the two kingdoms. Wales is a principality, ULster is only a province of 6 counties. Thus what you mean is that once Scotland has her autonomy back, what will be left will be ‘Britain’. You add to the problem because you want to make British English. We can no more accept that than you allowing european to mean french or german.
    What you people don’t seem to understand is that you are as much a victim of the misinformation campaign as the Scots are…. The civil service don’t want you to be independant either, campaign for an english parliament yourselves, most Scots will applaud and support you for it as we know the truth… But make no mistake, you need us way more than we need you and stop peddling this sort of tripe, it only shows you up as a victim of propaganda!

    • Dave says:

      England don’t need anything form Scotland that’s the point we want you to independent and take wales and NI with you.

      England would be financially better off with out you all FACT, your oil does not prop up ENGLAND it goes towards supporting NI and Wales.

      PLEASE VOTE FOR INDEPENDANCE.

  54. HB says:

    I have been reading these comments. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, the lack of respect you have for each other is disgusting.

    Firstly I am English and would like to see the UK remain as one. The reason for this has nothing to do with oil, money or power but simply because we are one island with a shared past. Our families span across both countries and for most people this is important.

    I think the Scottish people should have a vote and whatever the outcome we should all support that.

    The Oil doesn’t matter to me at all, its 2% of UK GDP compared to what would be 30-35% of Scottish GDP. If you a Government want to tie themselves so closely to oil, that is a big risk. My final comment, Scottish Oil? I doubt it – Shetland Oil – absolutely yes.I only hope that the people of Shetland have their voice heard in their historic struggle for independence too.

    We need English people (including me) to stop talking about this issue – leave it to the Scottish people.

  55. Ray Pettit says:

    If Scotland breaks away the we must make the Welsh take the same route, The Welsh offer nothing but to bleed us dry. Lets be little England once again

  56. dave says:

    Why do the majority of Scottish posters think that the majority of the population of England give a fuck if you stay or leave? Why do the populations of the UK nations apart from England think that England own or control any of you.

    Hold a referendum in England today and we would vote for our own independence! It’s the Government that stops it the Government of the UK, that was controlled by the Scottish for years under labour which left us all in the mess we are in know, take that as your trial run.

    Take your freedom the freedom you already have and stop whinging like pathetic little children ‘it’s all the nasty little English folks fault for our misfortunes’ we would be so much better off with out them apart from all the years as a nation we protected each other without us you would have been conquered by other nations.

    You entered a union, your country was bankrupted, you asked us for our help!!!!

    PLEASE UNDERSTND THE MAJORITY OF ENGLAND DO NOT CARE, WE ARE INDIFFERENT, WE DO NOT HATE YOU, WE DO NOT CARE IF YOU LEAVE OR STAY IT IS YOUR CHOICE JUST STOP BANGING ON ABOUT IT AS THOUGH WE THE ENGLISH PUBLIC ARE TRYING TO STOP IT OR WE ARE ALL SITTING AROUND IN PUBS UP DOWN THE COUTRY RUNNING SCARED OF THE IDEA, IN THE MOST WE ALL WELCOME IT.

    Yours faithfully

    An Englishman who wishes you all the best, you can even take all the oil and gas who gives a toss.

    • james s says:

      Calm down Dave, it was an English man that started this thread, not a Scot.

      Also, I can assure you we Scots couldn’t care less what the English think.

      Enjoy your day.

  57. alexander clements says:

    YES LETS LOOK AT THE DARIEN EXPERIMENT it was the nobles that went bankrupt the burghs were solvent and it was the english government that backstabbed them in the first place
    helping the spanish to block our convoys why so there was no competion with english expansion

    • David says:

      Yes lets! Estimates vary but a mid range would place the Scottish exposure at 25% of all the money in circulation in Scotland at the time. Should independence come, Scotland would also need to pay this debt, either accounting for inflation, or simply by setting the level at 25% of the money/wealth currently circulating in Scotland (on top of the Scottish share of the UK national debt).
      Yet again England being blamed for something that has no basis or proof in fact. The darien scheme was a monumental act of folly, embarked on by a Scottish government with no skill or experience in this area, and yet it was backed by huge financial commitment without any decent investigation. With 25% of all Scottish wealth at the time invested, it is also a fallacy to say that it was just the scottish nobles who lost out. Fundamentally Scotland was bankrupt.
      There is no evidence to say the English helped or supported the Spanish in any way (although there is also no evidence they helped or supported the Scottish either – but they were under no obligation to do so!). Infact this supposed Spanish help is highly unlikely given the usually bad state of relations between England and Spain at the time. Moreover there is no evidence of any direct attempt by the English to prevent this venture.
      Going on from that, there is little evidence that suggests the failure was due to the Spanish rather than to the Scots themselves – bad planning, bad execution, bad choice of location, all eggs in one basket etc. etc. (the Spanish and the English both had ventures that resulted in similar (but smaller) problems, but had several other ventures going at the same time, and hadn’t commited all their financial clout at once before a ‘route’ was proven).
      Is the UK government desperate for Scotland to remain part of the UK? I believe, and think they believe, that the UK including Scotland is better off remaining as one. That does not mean ‘Desperate’ in any way shape or form. It just means that the Scots, when they get to vote (and they should have a vote, which will be respected) should NOT sleep walk into believeing the plausible ease and pot of gold that will be waiting for them if they vote for independance by the SNP and Alex Salmond. It will be a more acrimonious divorce than anything any of us will have known in our lifetimes, if independance does come for Scotland.
      England should also get a vote at the same time, about our own state of independance – a vote which i think would be every bit as hard and closely fought as one in Scotland – i think there is a growing feeling in England that we are tired of being the scape goat for perceived wrongdoings that happened hundreds of years ago. (it would make me laugh and cry all at the same time if Scotland were to vote to remain a part of the UK, while a vote in England voted for a split)
      The Orkneys and Shetlands should get further questions about whether they want to be part of Scotland, A modified UK, independant for themselves, or go back to Norway (any of the last three would destroy any thoughts of ANY oil and gas for Scotland) – Personally if i were them i would vote for Norway………..
      It should also be remembered that Scotland would have roughly the same weighting and size within europe as Ireland, Croatia and Moldova, and geographically right on the periphery. A modified UK even without Scotland, would be one of the 4 biggest countries and economies, slightly smaller than Italy rather than the same size as France.
      Even if the whole UK were to split, with Wales and Northern Ireland also becoming independant, England would remain number 4, still bigger than Spain and Poland.
      I write this as a ‘typical’ mongrel British person. I have significant amounts of Scottish blood and genes coursing through my body, and am fiercly proud of that (even when the sun is shining on my fair skin, freckles and occasional ginger hair, all from Scottish heritage). I do however consider myself to be English, having been born and raised in England. The only result i can see of any Scottish independance would be a huge increase in Scottish resentment at England and the remaining UK (and vice versa). There is no easy way out of the situation we are currently in, and Scottish independance certainly wouldn’t help (in my opinion) either a modified UK or a newly independant Scotland.
      What about Sterling, would Scotland be charged to allow them to continue to use this currency (Which predates the act of union and is the English currency). It is mentioned above, that if kept by Scotland it would put restrictions on Scottish ability to dictate its own macro economic policy…………
      I have only covered a couple of points here, but there are hundreds if not thousands of questions that would need to be resolved. All of which would be difficult if not impossible to unwind, let alone doing it with both sides remaining happy about the outcome…………………DON’T sleepwalk into this nightmare, and if you do, don’t expect it to be the bed of roses that is being peddaled. Or expect once a decision is made that the rest of the UK would just roll over, and agree to the picture put forward by the SNP. Rather than laying out a picture that the Scottish would probably see as abhorrent, in the same way that the English regard the picture currently being cast by the SNP…………………………………………

  58. JOHN WINSTON SMITH says:

    I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT SCOTLAND HAVE FAILED AGAIN TO QUALIFY FOR A MAJOR FOOTBALL TOURNAMENT AGAIN

  59. THOMAS DICKEY says:

    YES THATS TRUE SCOTLAND REALLY ARE NO GOOD AT FOOTBALL BUT THEY ARE REALLY GOOD AT SHEEP SHAGGING

  60. paul mercer says:

    can we start work on improving hadrians wall soon please

  61. I favour rebuilding the Antonine Wall…

    • james s says:

      Always wondered why the English use these walls against us as they represent resolute defiance and success in the face of tyranny from a foreign power. To the English, they confirm the effortless control your foreign masters had over your ancestors. It has always confused me that you’d even mention such physical and imposing representation of the weakness of the southern populations. A trait that has been evident throughout your history.

      Weird.

      • dave says:

        By that logic how pathetic is Scotland then?

        After all your Scottish ancestors were subjugated by those weak southern populations!

        You did not have the strength to gain it back! Your own people betrayed you.

        A trait that has been evident throughout your history.

        Anyone can try and be clever and throw thinly veiled insults, pathetic really when the debate is about something else.

  62. dave says:

    James S it does not matter if an Englishman started the topic or not, my point is every time one of these topics starts the same thing happens and a Scot poster or ten start banging on about freedom and how the English own you!!! Oil and gas and how the English are quivering with fear about your independence.

    When the fact is we are not we would vote for total independence ourselves now if we had a choice, count yourselves lucky you have that choice just stop banging on about it like we care.

    This is a fact, if England was totally independent we would prosper far better than any other UK nation, even if we let Scotland take all the oil and gas, even though you don’t own anywhere near all of it.

    Another comment that always makes me laugh from posters and media is:

    What about our identity who is thinking of the British identity? Really? No one cares we all think of ourselves as English, Scottish Welsh or Irish.

    We would have to rediscover our identity? Really? that’s an issue where do they get such rubbish from!!!!

    Go in peace and take Wales and NI with you and please understand the English public really would like this to happen if for no better reason it would be financially beneficial to us.

    Also it would be nice not to be blamed for your combined problems you would have to look yourselves in the mirror and take responsibility for your own decisions good and bad.

    Swap your Union with us for a union with Europe, Good luck with that ask Republic of Ireland people how that have gone! The UK will set its Interest rates to suit the UK; Europe sets its interests rates to suit GERMANY!!

    Scotland would be neither.

  63. dave says:

    I would also like to add that Alex Salmond is an untrustworthy, self righteous prick who is just after a place in history.

    He is also a fat jowled buffoon.

  64. alexander clements says:

    and david cameron wtf is he

  65. alexander clements says:

    i do agree with the you on the rediscover identity bit , i am very aware of my identity a proud scot
    who truly believes that the uk should remain as one and to work together as one nation
    security wise the english cant have their northern border naked as it were, if scotland was independent meaning if in future england as usual falls out with some cunt they come through scotland and invades you lot

  66. dave says:

    No one would ever try and invade the UK anyway! It is just not going to happen, if something insane in the world happened that meant that it did, then it would be by a nation that Scotland would not want on their, and as you say we would work as one nation.

    The UK armed forces would also still be a deterrent to any nation trying to enter Scottish territory, as you said the UK would not abandon Scotland and Scotland would not sell the UK up the river to another nation, this would all be part of the negotiations, we would enter a similar scaled down agreement as we now have with France.

    Another thing that would have to be negotiated is you cant just walk away from a union without any responsibility for NI, historically their links are more to do with Scotland than England or Wales so you would have to bear some of the ongoing financial burden it causes to the rest of the UK until their own independence.

    There are so many things that need to be discussed and costed out it is endless you just don’t break up that length of union and job done.

    The thing is most Scottish posters that start shouting with bluster only see it from their perspective and twist any thing that is said by a moron into a rally to battle.

    Many websites are littered with the same BS, that the English want all the assets and offload all the debt and this just simply Scottish Media propaganda telling you lies.

    Read through all the posts on this site and its shows who are the media brainwashed sheep and it is not English posters.

    The first response on this thread was from a Scottish poster who eloquently said (original spelling of poster left for effect, my spell checker almost exploded LOL)

    go for it, if it gets rid of you obnoquios English thieving b a s t a r d s.

    Some of the attempts by posters such as John BULL to paint a picture of the English as racists is laughable, of all the UK nations England is least racist towards the other nations, but we don’t have the little man syndrome so we don’t bang on about you all day.

    • must admit some english posts have me rolling about laughing especially the garbage that the english are least racist towards other nations, then why do the english football fans fight with EVERYBODY when england are playing football abroad what about the heysel stadium horror liverpool fans started fighting, every where they go they start fighting even the u21s have taken a leaf from their fans when england played serbia mass brawl and racist abuse from the english fan’s at u21 game what a disgrace, yet scots fans are welcomed with open arms ANY WHERE they go even at club level celtic fans got a FIFA & UEFA reward for excellent behaviour, while the english fans gets banned from travelling abroad

      • Dave says:

        KOF Its already been established that you are a tool.

        You really are stupid the SCOTS are the most racist of all UK nations this is a fact?

        Are you really that stupid? Football and football fans have nothing to do with it, if football fans were a measure of world people metrics then god help us.

  67. Kelly says:

    No! They will never take my Queen away from me! If my beloved Scotland try and make me choose I’ll choose to leave. I’m a Brit and I will not give that up for anyone. We don’t want independence! I honestly don’t know a soul who wants this to happen.

  68. Bookman232 says:

    Here I am a midlander of unknown parentage.( go for it)
    Iam amazed at the childishness of some of the comments utakindipis.shania,phill,ScotsmanVincent and the like.
    I served with many Scots in the forces,they were decent human beings and I have found decent people are decent no matter what their ancestry.
    Politicians are people who seek power,which is unfortunate as they are usually specialists at elasicating the truth –north or south of the border.
    Personally I have an inbuilt dislike for nationalism as it usally appeals to the lowest common denominator.
    Good luck to all

  69. Dave says:

    Four nations United together under one flag! Together we make a difference in the world, we all go alone then we become obsolete and inferior to other nations and basically a laughing stock to the rest of the world! I am British and proud of it! I hope we all stay together! Forget the politicians they only ever do anything to get noticed!!! y
    We the people, We make the difference not some penguin in a suit!

    A UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN

  70. nelly says:

    Scotland has done nothing but complain and fight for its independence for years usually taking the form of some , proud scotland, scotland the brave, cmon if you think your hard enough, crap.
    let them have their independence but that means complete independence, financially, militarily, welfare, education, health the lot.
    it would save the rest of britain a huge financial burden that could be put to good use improving our education and health/welfare system for people who pay more into the nation and yet receive less help.
    By the way if anybody is thinking of taking a holiday up there and dancing the gay gordon by firelight with a scenic view of the glen or loch then forget it, its mostly midge ridden when it actually stops raining, the people for the most are unfriendly and somewhat racist towards anybody different, the city centres are full of violent drunks or chavs with knives at night (they behave no differently in spain on holiday) and the food is terrible (mostly something fried with bread or gravy ie fish n chips with gravy!!? cant wait to get rid of scotland!
    maybe France could take it over fund it and introduce some manners and style.

  71. nelly says:

    I guess that the truth is that most of us english are tired of hearing about both scotland and n. irelands pushing for independence and dislike the amount of attention and time/money it takes up in government that could could be better spent on more important matters. i think nearly everybody i have spoken to down here in the beautiful south would be more than happy for Scotland and northen ireland to have its independence but like i said earlier it should be COMPLETE independence. Who knows maybe one or the other will prosper or fail, all our countries are in such an unsustainable mess would it make that much difference in our daily lives?
    Most hardworking intelligent people on the street do really question perhaps we could be better off if we gave scotland and n. ireland complete independence, split from the european union, trade more with america,canada, australia,japan etc.
    if we England
    1. give scotland total independence
    2.give n.ireland independence
    3.pull out of european union
    4.stop fighting a futile war in afghanistan
    how many billions would we save thus enabling England to have a brighter self reliant future
    people will argue that
    1. scotland might collapse……CRACK ON .its none of Englands concern
    1.(a) England might suffer financial loss if split from scotland…..WE WOULD GAIN REVENUE NOT LOSE!!!!!!
    2.Northern ireland will see catholics killing protestants…..CRACK ON if they want to kill each other, its none of Englands concern
    3.England would be worse off for parting with EU…..could it? uk has lost billions, industries and income because of this union. England no longer makes enough money on its produce selling to europe because they restrict our farming, own our fish, and own british industry.
    4.Afghanistan is none of Englands concern they are not nuclear capable and will continue to kill each other until long after we pull out, i know, ive been there, they behave like spoilt children fighting and arguing over everthing on a daily basis and despite what you see in the press we are achieving nothing! As soon as we leave they are going to pick up whatever we leave behind from rat packs to scrap metal and start killing each other with it.
    Perhaps it is high time that tried a new aproach and just worried about our own country?
    So crack on Scotland you go get your independence and England will hopefully get its independence as well.

    • Dave says:

      Your post is too harsh, Scotland is more than capable of going it alone it is just not as simple as the average simple Scottish poster who posts on here thinks. They only see it from there side and twist anything said into a battle cry.

      The amount of Scottish posters who show there inherent HATE of the English is obvious.

      I too want full Independence for England; however, i include Wales in this separation you are right in the fact that England would be financially stronger if FULLY independent.

      Before you get the wrong idea i am English.

  72. alan reid says:

    ‘Scotland subsidising rest of UK’ October 2010 by World Renowned Economist Andrew Hughes Hallett

    “A leading Professor of Economics, Andrew Hughes Hallett, has sensationally confirmed that Scotland has been subsidising the UK treasury in London for years and that the Calman Commission recommendations are unworkable and potentially damaging.”

    • A great deal of waffle quoting GERS which does not cover large chunks of expenditure in Scotland, a failure to address the division of North Sea Oil and Gas and assertions about government expenditure supposedly not spent in Scotland but allocated to Scotland, for example, the assertion about defence expenditure which did not examine what proportion of UK defence expenditure was made outside of the UK. Hallett also let a cat out of the bag when he admitted that the surplus he claimed might only have been for the past five years (when oil prices have been high). That ignores the previous three centuries of subsidy sent to Scotland by England since 1707.

      • james s says:

        Your evidence for this nonsense?

        Scotland was a power house of the industrial revolution so your assertion makes little sense to me other than making it obvious you use nationality as a means to make up for some other deficit in your life.

        Grow up.

  73. David Halliday says:

    ” extending a line at the angle of the coastline on the England-Scotland border”

    Absolute, ineffable, arrant nonsense. A point doesn’t have an angle, you idiot. The equidistance rule would be the worst we’d face, as a matter of international law.

  74. steven gruber says:

    Is there another nation who constantly bang on about their smaller neighbours negatively then expect a positive response? I haven’t heard of them. There are constant comments aimed north tarnishing the image of scottish people then they all cry about us not supporting them in the world cup. The racists in Scotland are always the scum in society- the very lowest in the country. But the English racists can come in the form of MP’s, professionals, educated people in general, that is the difference. I’m proud that I’m part of a country who has a decent upper and middle class, because there seems to be no part of England that isn’t guided by a dislike of foreigners and a built-in belief of ones own superiority. I thought they were indifferent to Scotland leaving- that’s what we are told, we are not important enough to bother about- if they care as little as they say they do then why do they keep talking about us?

    • James S says:

      Ignore them friend. They rightly point out there is a tiny minority of grunts in Scotland who need someone to hate, like the English. What they fail to comprehend is that a far greater proportion of the general public in England hate pretty much everyone who isn’t English. I lived there for 18 years and after coming home again it’s so patently obvious who has the proverbial chip on their shoulder.

      As far as this debate goes, their opinion is irrelevant anyway.

      • Dave says:

        James i think you will find you are very wrong, the Scottish carry the very large chip, the English really do not care. Please believe me when i tell you this the English do not bang on about you all day, on the other hand the Scottish are obsessed with hatred. If you want to leave then go no one has even attempted to stop you in fact the PM has done as much as he can to assist it, just because he and certain people want to keep the union does not mean they wont to control you they just believe it is best for us to stick together. I don’t and neither do the English public, but we don’t get to vote. PS Can you attempt not to be a pompous twat in every post. pps a tiny minority of Grunts my god you really do believe your own bullshit you are the most country on the planet at all levels to all races.

    • Dave says:

      We dont,, you do in fact most of the English Public are not even aware it is happening!!

  75. David says:

    English or Scottish!!! Grow up you sad pathetic people! There is more things to worry about!!

  76. bookman232 says:

    or even absolutely right

  77. Pingback: Wings Over Scotland | Desperation takes hold

  78. Ben says:

    This is quite an interesting blog and reading the comments concerns me. As someone who has resided in most of the regions within the UK at one point or another it would be interesting to see whether the ignorant comments have been made by anyone who has truly experienced the UK culture.

    Together we are stronger and we share so much. What separates us is very little and in case you’ve forgotten the history! These ‘Great’ Isles have provided so much more to the world we live in from science, arts and business than any other nation.

    We are brothers and sisters of a great nation and hope that we stay ‘United’ as we have done for hundreds of years. It is great to read a Bill Hicks quote as he like all intelligent and fair minded people got it… Life is about balance and above all respect for you fellow man.

    I’m a Londoner but happen to think Scotland like the North of England is an amazing place steeped with such worthy heritage that I’m so proud to call myself British.

    I may appear like some ‘Hippy’ but in actual fact I’m a kick ass City worker with a mandate for the UK. I see no difference between the South or North of this Island aside from the temperature!

    • Dave says:

      beatnik 🙂

      I like the roars ‘these great isles’, ‘were stronger together’, and we are brothers and sisters.

      However most unions split and ENGLISH DAVE thinks its a good idea for this marriage to end.

  79. John Windsom says:

    Fuck off you deluded, skirt wearing, lard munching, Scottish parasites! I’M SICK OF THIS FUCKING ‘PIECEMEAL’, ‘PICK-AND-MIX’ ‘INDEPENDENCE’!
    Either do it properly, as suggested above, or shut the fuck up FOREVER!

    • james s says:

      Another Eng brain at full stretch!

      You Engs are embarrassing.

      • Jim Wallace says:

        Can you blame this type of response when we hear the anti-English tripe vomiting forth from the Nationalists on a dally basis? The SNP constantly blame Westminster in a vain attempt to avoid using the word they really should use, England. They have had enough devolved powers to make a difference but have chosen not to use them. No matter how the vote goes the relationship is damaged beyond repair. Well done Salmond & Co. You’re leading your country down the pan.

  80. Och Aye the Noo says:

    Can we PLEASE have passport control on the border?!! And the same rights for Haggis Noggis as we have for other undesirables like Al-Qaeda members. Let’s get this on the statute before they independently join the EU.
    HERE HERE for Scottish independence!

  81. George Smythe says:

    Some pertinent comments.

    I’m fed up with this one-sided shite too! As usual, England must ‘bend over’ because a bunch of parochial clowns want some sort of imaginary autonomy. Did everyone see that twat Alex Salmond at Wimbledon? Everyone congratulating Murray and having a lovely day, and that prick effectively squealing, “He’s Scottish, he’s Scottish…….. He’s NOT English!” And waving a bloody white cross. Pathetic! Kind of summed up the whole issue. Incidentally, where does Murray live?

    It makes me laugh when the Scottish Nazi Party and their acolytes state that Scotland would be “better off”! Better off, as long as it’s a kind of half-arsed ‘independence’. And Edinburgh isn’t going to transform into London overnight, it’s still going to be a provincial northern city, just more cut off.

    I sincerely believe that England should have a referendum about what an ‘independent’ Scotland is allowed to steal! Forget about stirling first and foremost! The automatic passage between both countries MUST stop as well. Amongst a whole list of other ‘benefits’.

    It’s just an offensive liberty!

  82. I’m really not too sure what to make of all this. I am a Scotsman, who believes in independence, that is, I believe we should have the right to govern ourselves, for better or worse. It doesn’t mean I hate English people; in fact, I have relatives who live in various places in England, through the Armed Forces. most of the people I have met from all over the UK have been pleasant, rational, and reasonable, and if you haters actually spent some time in Scotland, and got to know us on our terms, you would probably like us too. Fear, Non-understanding, and racial bigotry (on both sides, I’m ashamed to say), have no place in this discussion. Yes, of course there will be consequences to Independence, fiscally or otherwise. We know this. In fact, once again, if you actually did some research, you would find that most Scottish people are honest, hard-working individuals, just like you. It is your government that has told you that we are the wasters and parasites you seem to think we are. Take a closer look at your own politicians, and see what they are doing to your country, and you might see some inconvenient truths there, that might explain why we want nothing at all to do with it. We don’t like being governed by liars (though whether our own government would be any better remains to be seen), and want a stab at doing it our own way. If you actually spend less time insulting us, and more time thinking about it, you would see this truth.
    In closing, I apologise for my more…emotional brethren, and hope you come to realise that we are not all the English haters you have been misled into believing we are.

    • james s says:

      ……applause…..

      • Dave says:

        Really you couldn’t make it up??

        Please read the thread from beginning to end in fact read the first response form a Scottish poster, original spelling mistakes left in for effect 🙂

        utakindipis@hotmail.co.uk says:
        May 7, 2011 at 12:13 am
        go for it, if it gets rid of you obnoquios English thieving b a s t a r d s.

        We all agree with we want you to gain independence what bit of this have you missed?

    • Annie says:

      Hi, I am married to a Scot, born and bred in Glasgow, we have a son in the Armed Forces, and it is upsetting to read all the unpleasant name calling. I grew up holidaying in Scotland, and love it to this day. i have always found the people friendly, helpful and give excellence attention to detail. I never knew there was animosity between the two nations until I married and an in-law was disparaging about myself being a sassenach! Not being a follower of any sport I didnt notice the rivalry in that area. However, the members of my scottish family here in England do not want independence, but I say, if the Scots want it, let them have it without rancour. Why not – many English would like to be free from Westminster, and the rubbish politicians we have to suffer under. I live in the south-west of England and there isnt too much wealth here, I know. And yet everyone thinks the south as being wealthy. Having said this, my husband has, in the past been told to “go back where he came from”, but only once! Not too bad for over 30 years living here. If Scotland votes for independence I guess my husband will have to have a passport to stay here, and where does my son sit? Maybe if Scotland gains independence we can all start being pleasant to each other again, and I still want to go there for holidays.

  83. William Andrew Philip Doyle says:

    The SNP document ‘Utopia’, (or as it’s really called, “SCOTLAND’S FUTURE’) was published today. Moving aside from the ridiculous English/Scottish ‘banter’/’bigotry’, of which I have no interest, I’m afraid this publication simply verified the more ‘English’ sentiments above. Statements above that include words like ‘one-sided’, ‘arrogant’, ‘pick-and-mix’, and ‘deluded’ were given a stamp of approval today by Alex Salmond;
    “We’ll keep the Pound, AND WE’LL DECIDE”, yet astoundingly, “We’ll set our own tax, AND WE’LL DECIDE”.
    “We’ll keep the Queen, AND WE’LL DECIDE”.
    “We’ll keep open borders, AND WE’LL DECIDE”.
    “We’ll keep the BBC, AND WE’LL DECIDE”.
    “We’ll have some assets, AND WE’LL DECIDE WHAT”.
    “We’ll keep the oil, AND WE’LL DECIDE”.
    “We’ll stay in the EU, AND WE’LL ARROGANTLY ANNOUNCE THAT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE REST OF THE EU THINKS.”
    “We’ll IMMEDIATELY join N.A.T.O., AND WE’LL DECIDE” (?????)
    “Austerity will disappear, AND WE’LL DECIDE”. (LAUGHABLE!)
    I’m afraid that if one removes the silly language from some of the statements above, the salient criticism seems to have a great deal of validity. Apart from the arrogance involved, some of these statements are unworkable, and others, IN REALITY, rely on the consent of others.

    COME ON SCOTLAND! BIN THIS NONSENSE before the S.N.P. drag the ‘country’ into oblivion.
    Do any of you Scots really think that the North East of England, the North West of England, the West Midlands, most of central London, and, more poignantly, Wales, are happy being ruled by a selfish Tory goverment in Westminster? OF COURSE NOT! Wales voted “NO” to outright independence, despite the famed Welsh nationalism. In spite of all of the ‘Geordie Village’ stuff that comes out of the North East of England, when given the chance of a regional government with all sorts of ‘powers’, a comparatively large turnout voted ‘against’ by about 85%. There is a time for ‘flag waving’, and a time to realise what is a sensible course of action. In addition, this nonsense about “………we want to run ourselves……..”…….. REALLY? Is that really how it would be? Or would it be just like EVERY other region/country on Earth with the same fragmentation, and the same vested interests?

    I think the choices for Scotland are quite clear. Vote for this rubbish, and watch that idiot Salmond take your ‘country’ in to either, (AT BEST), a difficult situation with little or no advantage and all sorts of risks, or, (AT WORST), an absolute quagmire!
    You decide.

    • M Smith says:

      After reading this thread being an “unknown” voter I’m heavily swayed towards a yes, this is a completely ridiculous thread full of lies and rhetoric, many comments angered me as a scot and you should be ashamed to think of your neighbours like this!

      Hope you will enjoy little debt ridden England, soon enough you will regret the abuse your government has done to our fair nation for many many years, you can say scotland are this and scotland are that….. All your rhetoric about scotland being lazy smelly benifit scroungers is a cause of the Westminster government….. Think its time scotland put you back in your place as a pathetic country punching way above your weight

      Enjoy your future of bleakness and austerity, were getting out of it, and could the last person out of England please switch the lights off

      • Jim Robinson says:

        Absolute deluded madness!!!! You’ll sink into a sea of porridge quicker than an Englishman can say, “Barnett Formula”!
        If you trannies want ‘independence’, as you laughably call it, then why don’t you support the collective ideas of:
        a) YOUR OWN CURRENCY?
        b) A CLOSED BORDER?
        c) YOUR OWN ‘INDEPENDENT’ HEAD OF STATE?
        ASTOUNDING that you suggest that England is ‘debt ridden’, and an ‘independent’ Whiskeyland wouldn’t be! So it’s SHARE the assets but not the liabilities is it? And you say that you’re not parasites?
        Vote ‘YES’ and your ‘country’ will go straight into the toilet. Although if you already live in Heroineland, I doubt whether you’ll notice any difference.

      • Graham says:

        JIm ,why you so emotional ? its an idiotic attitude.
        Salmond uses the very attitudes to stoke his nationalism.
        I deal with many Scots and not one want him to succeed.

      • Jim Robinson says:

        Graham – More mischievous than emotional in all honesty.
        No strong feelings here! It’s not really a valid argument anyway.
        Salmond is the ONLY Scot that irritates me. And that is in a comical way.

      • Graham says:

        Jim.you are probably right.Pity they have to spread the bile on these pages
        all the best

  84. Andrew collins says:

    I am very much English and don’t mind saying that we are stronger united than we are separated, but reading some of the comments from my fellow country men makes me ashamed both English and Scottish. All this hate and rhetoric plays into the hands of the people that will benefit from the dissolving of our union THE socialist EU. Why are we able to have a referendum on a 300 year partnership and yet a unconstitutional undemocratic 30 year old Germanic/Franco shit fest.

    • Graham says:

      Yes ,all the spiteful rhetoric from north and south makes me sick.
      Imagine these type of people in charge.
      Seems most of the hateful comments are emotionally lead,
      I know how difficult it is to deal with emotional opinions whatever your political coolur maybe
      Salmond is a consumate politician and we all know what they are.

  85. Steve says:

    Cripes – I’ve long thought that a “yes” vote would not only be a new start for Scotland, but would also suit the rest of the UK. Reading some of the comments on here though, I now think that the arguments are so obscured by partiality that it is practically impossible for anyone to make a rational decision. This kind of negativity is hardly constructive is it and neither is it indicative of a working Union? However, if there is a vote for independence then it should not be mutated into a “Devo Max” solution. That will lead to even more dissatisfaction and entrenched opinions each side of the border. It should be a clean break. I for one would be happy to accept that Scotland should inherit not one penny of the current UK debt if that is the price to pay for insisting that Scotland should have it’s own currency. Make no mistake people – that one thing alone could make or break you as a nation. Whatever Scotland thinks about UK national debt or the reasons for it, the UK has financial credibility, Abandon that and there may be a very real price to pay. International markets are notoriously unkind to nations who exhibit unorthodox accounting practices. I for one, as an Englishman, wish you well. If nothing else it will be the incarnation of the Chinese curse – “may you live in interesting times”

    • Gerald says:

      Very well said Steve! One of the better ‘non-partizan’ comments on this thread.
      You are right to mention the ‘international market’. It certainly does not create bedfellows with itself and ‘unproven’ or ‘uncertainty’. This needs to be said as opposed to Mr Salmond’s ‘……skipping off into the new Scottish sunset…..’ rhetoric.
      Well said sir.

  86. Rigor McSnort says:

    Right, well, after today’s announcement, it looks like it’s the ‘Scottish Dollar’ following a (now unlikely) ‘Yes’ vote. I doubt very much that the Euro will be made available for a very long time, if ever. Although apparently Mr Salmond is still negotiating………….. with himself!
    This is just the first of the SNP’s list of arrogant, deluded fantasist, unilateral announcements to be shown up as a hollow, empty, semi-literate gesture, as indeed they all are.
    Salmond; he used to say that Scotland could be Ireland! Now it’s Denmark or Sweden. And all of his options as regards a Currency Union remain open as apparently, the whole of Westminster, (all denominations and persuasions). who have categorically stated that a Currency Union WILL NOT HAPPEN, will immediately backtrack and concede to his requests, and make themselves look like idiots following a ‘Yes’ vote.
    IS THERE ONE PERSON LEFT IN SCOTLAND WHO SUPPORTS THIS IDIOT? If there is, and you’re reading, be good enough to switch the lights off……………………….

  87. Shelton Forbes says:

    The first of the ‘big’ Scottish employers has today announced that its 5000 Scottish jobs will probably be moved south of the border following a ‘yes’ vote.
    First amongst many I’d imagine.
    Let this be a warning to all of those who support Mr Salmond as a Scottish P.M.
    Flag-hugging Scots on here should start and address the real world!

  88. Jerome No-Kilty says:

    Bollocks to them!
    Only five minutes since it was, ” We hate you, but can our football teams still join your league?”
    No, they bloody well can’t!
    Send the tramps back and rebuild Hadrian’s Wall slighty further north.
    Bring the civil service jobs south, along with Standard Life et al, collect and burn the ‘Scottish’ pound notes, shut down the BBC masts north of Berwick, and close the border.
    They’ll all soon be singing, #” I would walk five hundred miles……”#

    • Graham says:

      A typical wasuck

      • James S says:

        Indeed.

        You can tell the height of intellect on England Calling when the grunts keep harping on about rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall.

        The very symbol of their ancestors’ capitulation and servitude and of Northern determination.

        You have to laugh.

    • Ian says:

      So far:

      “An English brain at full tilt………”

      “A Scottish brain at full tilt……….”

      “An English brain at full tilt………”

      “A Scottish brain at full tilt……….”

      One thing reading this risible list of threads has taught me is that there aren’t two ‘nations’ arguing here, JUST THE ONE!

      Says it all really.

    • Adolph Salmond says:

      Ahhhhhh, James.

      It’s the same sad, sorry story with your input all the way through this piece.
      I’d wager that it takes you an hour to write one of your semi-literate, fifty word paragraphs; looking around the web for facts, nose buried in a thesaurus……. utterly hilarious.

      Do you want to know what gives you away – as in ‘contrived’, rather than your generic vernacular?

      Incidentally;

      Football teams – no comment

      Civil Service and other jobs – no comment

      Currency – no comment

      BBC – no comment

      Hadrians Wall, (which I imagine was a ‘joke’), – anal response.

      As you so eloquently squeak, “You have to laugh”

  89. Windsor Churchill-Davis says:

    Jerome, you forgot about ‘Passports’! The UK version that includes Scotland HAS to be withdrawn.
    So their ‘new’ passports will be ‘Scottish’ ONLY! Not UK, and NOT E.U. either, for the forseeable.
    Let’s see them globetrotting with one of those!
    Also vehicle registration and VED! How much will the car tax be one wonders, in a ‘prosperous’ new land of plenty?
    ‘Ruled’ by London includes a myriad of things, least they forget.

  90. John says:

    When you girls have finally stopped bitching, will the Scottish input please vote a defiant ‘NO’ to this crap! There’s nothing but negatives all round as far as I can see.

  91. I’ll be honest but as a EU citizen I find the whole debate ridiculous.
    Irish, Scottish, English…It is basic International human rights that every nation has a right to self-determination. I think UK is relic when most of Europe has moved past borders drawn by Monarchic Dynasties.

    The problem is that the masses are abused and stupid at the same time.
    I always hear the Irish (North) or Scottish say “Fuck it we will stay in UK because our economy would be shit if we didnt”. As a European this is totally incomprehensible to me.

    For example, did Germans object when East Germany was reunited because “East Germany was poor”. Of course not, some complained but all knew it had to be done, it was for unity of a Nation which transcends everything.

    I see Scots and Irish as true Nations that need to decide their destiny.
    English need to grow over this “Empire or Monarchy thinking”. I think because the Royal Family is still there as figureheads, it clouds most English people’s judgments. So they still think they must “hold the realm” or some other bullshit that doesnt belong in 21st century.

    Ireland, England, Scotland, etc.
    Become independant already.
    Hell even Quebec should probably be in the 21st century.

  92. Hamish McTaggart says:

    New national anthem?

    # ” Brochan lom, tana lom, brochan lom na sùghain
    Brochan lom, tana lom, brochan lom na sùghain
    Brochan lom, tana lom, brochan lom na sùghain
    Brochan lom ‘s e tana lom ‘s e brochan lom na sùghain

    Meagre and thin porridge, thin, thin, meagre porridge
    Meagre and thin porridge, thin, thin, meagre porridge
    Meagre and thin porridge, thin, thin, meagre porridge
    Porridge thin, it is meagre and thin, it is porridge thin from sowans. ” #

  93. Hamish McTaggart says:

    Or, to the tune of ‘My Darling Clementine’,

    # ” Fry a Mars Bar,
    Fry a Mars Bar,
    Wrap it uuuuup in sausage meat,
    Add kebab meat, coat in batter,
    And you have a Scottish treat, ” #

  94. Maximilian R says:

    If they vote “yes’ we will turn our backs on them. If they think the Westminster Club is ruthless and bullying now they will be stunned when they see how ruthless they, and we, will become when protecting the interest of their own people, us. Jobs and money will flow southward. Great Britain will be a Greater Britain without them because whatever happens a large amount of them don’t want to be united with us.

    • Mel Smythers says:

      Well said Max! Although I can’t really see a ‘Yes’ vote happening to be honest.
      Scottish people aren’t that daft, even after two bottles of scotch and a gram of heroin.
      Seriously, I’m sure they’re aware that they will lose far too much, that there are far too many risks, and that all they’ll gain is a bit of flag waving and an idiot called Salmond.
      Don’t you find it hilarious? I can imagine them, standing on the border dressed like that well known Scot Mel Gibson, singing, # “We’ve got our own country the nooo…..” #. The obvious unintentional irony in that (Scottish) ‘sentence’ is the word, ‘country’. The humerous verse would fade as they finally realise that it had all been a waste of time as England just doesn’t give a shit.

  95. Binsby Fenkelstein says:

    Ha Ha! This is a great site!
    Can anyone remember when the BBC’s Newsnight program, during either a World or European Cup, (I can’t remember which), a few years ago, parked an old car in the middle of Glasgow with an English flag on it. Some of the sophisticated folk of the city ‘attacked’ it. They didn’t half give it a damn good thrashing. When the Scots viewed the broadcast, and realised this activity had been surreptitiously filmed, they accused the BBC of ‘setting them up’! As if a car in Scotland with an English flag displayed is a ‘honey trap’! :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    And on another sporting event, anyone remember Salmond’s behaviour at Wimbledon when Murray won? With a bit of luck he’ll need an unobtainable visa to get here in future.
    Then I see adverts on the television suggesting that ‘we’ holiday in Scotland! Think I’ll continue to head south.
    Can’t see the ‘Independence’ question receiving a ‘Yes’ vote myself. A bit ‘Turkey’ and ‘Christmas’ as far as I can see. I mean England without Scotland, irrelevant. Scotland without England, fucked!

  96. Scott says:

    “The Daily Telegraph” – Front page 17/4/2014;

    ‘Scots being misled by Yes camp’s wealth claim’

  97. Dougal Winterbottom says:

    I should have called my son Scotland. He bleats on about wanting independence, even though I know he’ll be asking me for a handout when he fucks things up on his own.

    Plus he’s shit at football.

  98. Dougal Winterbottom says:

    Any time now millions of Scots will be writing “X” on their ballot papers.

    And I thought a referendum was supposed to be anonymous.

  99. Dougal Winterbottom says:

    There’s a fine line between civility and barbarity.

    We call it the Scottish border.

  100. Andrew McStewpot says:

    Orrrrrr,

    # ” Let the wind blow high, let the wind blow low.
    Spineless Scotland will vote ‘NO’
    Even though the English screamed fuck ‘O’!
    Scotland where’s ya troozers?” #

  101. Jockless and Happier says:

    If Jock McMoaney and his mates vote “Yes” to break away from the UK how we we all benefit?
    Labour no more.
    Barnet Formula no more.
    Subsidies no more.
    Listening to their whining no more.
    Carrying and promoting their culture no more.
    Diluting our culture no more.
    Listening to their accents on TV and Radio no more.
    Putting up with their crap no more.

    Proclaim Independence and bugger off and leave us alone for evermore.

  102. Frank0420 says:

    A lot of harsh language between both sides of the camp to say the least. Ultimately, the government should just dissolve the union between Scotland and the UK like any other Business or partnership. Whatever belongs to the Scots should stay with them and vice versa for the rest of the UK. I will add however, that it will be up to Scotland to defend her own borders and bail herself out and that no “special relationship” should arise from separation. On a side note: I know we live in a world where countries do not randomly annex each other on a whim, but the situation with Ukraine and Russia must be a little unnerving for Scotland. It is hard to fathom Scotland protecting herself from anyone, if she stands on her own, and the SNP policy is to cut defence spending to minimal. Admirable in a perfect world, but we don’t live in a perfect world.

  103. Mr Smith says:

    It’s not going to happen for crying out loud! Scots would have to be complete idiots to vote for this. End of.

  104. Mark of Staffs says:

    This is clearly an unhappy union which few seem to wish to continue. I just hope following a yes vote in September we carry on the logical process of fully dismantling the union so Wales and N Ireland can also take care of their own affairs.

    An England outside of the EU would be a far better nation for so many reasons.

    • Piers says:

      This is probably the most moronic, tabloid-minded, UKIP inspired shit that I’ve ever heard!
      Wait until the next time that you holiday in southern Europe following withdrawal from the EU! Remember currency control? I do! Forget the EHIC Card and free medical assistance. Forget moving around Europe without a care. Forget retiring to Spain and having your pension paid over there because of EU law! Forget being protected by various human rights legislation, and let’s rely on the corrupt paedophiles, (as is now being shown to be the case), that make self-serving, protectionist legislation unilaterally. Forget about it being impossible to end up in a military conflict with any other EU nation. Forget about the vast majority of trade that this country does at present. And, “Oh, thank heavens that we didn’t join the Euro and end up like Greece……..” NOT Germany obviously. Prick!
      ‘Opinions’, (and I use that word in its loosest possible form) like that, are ALWAYS based upon some ‘Sun’-inspired ‘ideas’ of the size and shape of bananas, or some ridiculous notion that 10,000,000 Romanians are going to move to the UK. One is irrelevant and the other impossible. You only know about these things from the media.
      Friedrich Nietzsche alluded to the fact that not everybody deserved ‘the vote’.
      He was absolutely right!
      Scotland, forget about the nonsense! Don’t make life more difficult for yourselves!

  105. When I read this I thought what a load balls and if I was English I would be worrying less about Scotland becoming Independent and I would be looking at the self-focused monster that London and the south east of England is becoming, especially if you come from the north of England or Wales or Northern Ireland as these places are essentially rotting away.
    Those of us that are voting Yes who have actually done research, without wearing William Wallace rose tined sun glasses or a jimmy wig, we know we are more than capable as a nation to go it alone. But we must realise what we achieved as a union which was a lot, but if we are totally truthful the Union is by its sell by date and is not serving the people of this land and I include the UK as a whole in that statement with the exception of the South east and London.

    1. Scotland to take a share of the UK National debt (excluding the costs involved in supporting Scottish banks and building societies, mainly the RBS and HBOS banks) proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland. The servicing of this debt to be the first charge on Scotland’s public financing.

    That Scotland will also be reimbursed for the money that Scottish tax payers have paid to bail out English based banks????

    2. Scotland to pay for the past and future costs of bailing out Scottish banks and building societies.

    As above.

    3. The huge English subsidies to Scotland to cease immediately on a Yes vote being achieved.

    Barnet Formula paid to Scotland to placate the Scottish for the profit that is hoovered out of the north sea, instigated by Thatcher’s conservative party. The Barnet formula has been reduced massively, look up barnet squeeze if you can be arsed. Also I think you will be giving us more than we give you as Scottish taxpayers pay more per head of population in tax than the rest of the UK £10,700 per person in Scotland and compared with £9000 to be exact. The difference comes from public spending in Scotland so you need to get your facts right, they are not subsidies.

    4. All English public sector jobs which have been exported to Scotland to be brought back to England. This would include not merely traditional civil service posts, but facilities such as those supporting UK nuclear submarines.

    The majority of Scot’s do not want any nuclear submarines in Scotland..

    5. Scotland to launch its own currency or join the Euro. If they remain tied to the pound they would have no true independence and practically be dependent on England for the macro management of their economy.

    Scotland should run its own currency, that way it has better controls over things like inflation. Scotland should not run the risk of potentially having to bail out the rest of the UK in the event of another financial crash due to bad management.

    6. The division of the oil and gas fields to be made on the basis of extending a line at the angle of the coastline on the England-Scotland border. This is in accordance with the UN convention on the Law of the Sea article 7 – see http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf.
    This would give England a substantial proportion of the oil and even more of the gas fields.

    Good luck with that one, you probably should do more research into where the actual main oil fields are and also realise that Scotland and England have two different system’s of law and so have actually already and boundaries were defined by the continental shelf act, for that very reason.

    7. Scotland to be gifted any state owned building in Scotland but to have no claim on publicly owned facilities in the remainder of the UK.

    Scottish Taxes have paid for these buildings just like the ones in England

    8. Nuclear submarines and any other fundamentally important military equipment to
    be moved to England.

    The quicker the better.

    9. All military research to be moved to England.

    Unless it is obviously a Scottish based company.

    10. All future UK defence expenditure to be made in the remainder of the UK.

    Well that I would have thought to be pretty obvious, so much so I cant imagine it would need to be stated here.

    11. Scotland to form its own armed forces. These will have to be capable of not only defending Scottish land but also of policing Scottish territorial waters.

    No Brainier

    12. Scotland to be gifted all military establishments in Scotland , but Scotland to have no claim on military establishments elsewhere in the UK or abroad.

    Like above you seem to forget we pay taxes also.

    13. Military equipment. Scotland to be gifted existing equipment sufficient to equip whatever forces Scotland forms provided this equipment does not exceed what is available to similar UK forces. .

    Like above you once again you seem to forget we pay taxes also.

    14. All publicly funded non-military research in Scotland to be moved to the remainder of the UK.

    Yet again unless it is Scottish based.

    15. Scotland to be responsible for the payment of all public sector pensions earned in Scotland before independence.

    What the public sector pension that are currently being annihilated by Westminster, of course Scotland will take responsibility for it.

    16. Scotland to be responsible for a share proportionate to the percentage of the
    UK population in Scotland of EU related pension earned before independence.

    As above.

    17. Scotland to be responsible for the financing all government contracts relating to
    building, goods and services supplied in Scotland which were entered into before
    independence.

    What like the two big aircraft carriers we are currently building for the Navy.

    18. Property relating to UK diplomatic missions to remain the property of the remainder of the UK.

    Well of course I thought that would have been obvious..

    19. Scotland to be responsible for a share of diplomatic pensions earned before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland.

    Already covered I am sure.

    20. Scotland to be responsible for a share of any public service pensions other
    than those related to the diplomatic corps which is earned abroad before independence proportionate to the percentage of the UK population in Scotland.

    The Scottish Government has made clear that accrued pension rights will continue to be honoured after independence.

    21. Immigration to Scotland from outside the EU and for any future new EU members to be controlled on the same basis as the UK controls immigration.

    We will control who comes into our country any way we please and what UK controls are you talking about? There are none.

    22. Scotland to make its own application for EU membership without support from the Westminster government.

    Oh I think we could manage doing that, without you holding our hands, we will be big and brave..

    23. If the remainder of the UK or England alone leaves the EU, the following may be put in place:

    a) border controls between Scotland and the remainder of the UK.

    Fine.

    b) Scotland to be treated as any other member of the EU would be treated. Fine.

    c) UK protectionist barriers to Scotland.

    Fine.

    d) an end to free movement from Scotland to the remainder of the UK.

    Fine.

    e)an end to Scots citizens enjoying the benefits of the UK Welfare State. Fine. ( Mind you that is something that is not really happening just now anyway, so whatever)

    24. If Scotland is unable to gain EU membership, all of 23 may apply apart from (b).

    Reference the above do what you want, it is your country and if you want to cut your noses off to spite your face then crack on..

    • James the Worst says:

      Jesus! You talk about “cut your noses off to spite your face” (sic). But the things that you have outlined, especially the ones that are answered with ‘fine’, would be an huge price to pay to be RULED BY SALMOND. Crazy madness if you ask me! But, as you say, “crack on” if you wish……

    • Timothy English says:

      When I read twisted, semi-literate, bitter shite like this, which I can not be bothered to dissect, (I’m sure anyone of a non-partizan persuasion can see all of the inaccuracies, omissions, and miscalculations, in addition to the obvious bias, prejudice, partiality, and delusion), I’m of the opinion that Scottish ‘Independence’ should be realized; if for no other reason than to laugh at people like this as they regret their words.

    • Richard Pound says:

      Yes, a great deal of this terribly non-researched piece is indeed unworkable, and would be catastrophic for an independent Scotland. And it does seem a little contradictory, as in spite of the opening paragraph, it could have been written by Wallace himself. He obviously becomes more angry as he writes the list! :-). Does anyone remember that Harry Enfield character Frank (Mc)Doberman?
      But I will say one thing for it/him. At least he wants independence at any cost. At least he wants genuine independence and is willing to address the difficult ‘English’ issues, and is not pretending that Stirling and half of London already belong to Scotland.
      Crack on sir…… crack on!

  106. Peddy says:

    There must be something wrong with me. I’m English, through and through, and I’ve never met a Scotsman (or Woman) that I don’t like or get along with. If they want or gain independence are they all going to change their personalities overnight – if ever? As per usual it’s the money men and politicians which sets nation against nation, ordinary folk against ordinary folk, for their own ends.
    The Scots are a tough bunch and I’m sure they’ll thrive with or without the UK and it’s their choice. Personally I’d rather keep them as allies and friends.

    • james s says:

      Why won’t we be friends and allies post-indy?

      • Peddy says:

        I’ll keep my Scottish friends regardless, James – whatever the majority votes for. I’d prefer it if Scotland were to remain as part of a union because Scotland helped to make Great Britain great “and” we need Scotland to help keep our politicians honest down here. 😀

        Quoting: “Personally I’d rather keep them as allies and friends” I was responding to the apparent racial hatred I’d read above and, tbh, I could hardly believe what I was reading.
        If Scotland gains independence then good luck. It’s Scotland’s future and, as neighbours, I’d just like to think we could all get along and wish each other well? Too much to ask 😦

      • james s says:

        It’s absolutely not too much to ask. To most in Scotland, the referendum is about preserving the British values and institutions we all grew up with. Things Westminster for a long time now have been ripping up in the name of profit (for a few at least). It’s about using our ample natural and human resources for the betterment of the many, not the few. Sadly, our cousins south of the border have been pushed further into the neo-con fallacy due to a bought and paid for media and politicians that are on the payroll of those least likely to give a damn about the many.

        I have close family in England and I view a Yes vote as not just a huge step for us who live in Scotland but as a catalyst to the people of England, Wales and NI too. A spark that will precipitate similar thoughts that we’ve had. Namely, how many disasters do we need to go through til we realise the vested interests in Westminster and the City are crippling us; or how many important league tables do we need to prop up til we realise the status quo is just not good enough.

        I’ve been involved in countless meetings and conversations about this issue and not once have I heard anything citing where you come from or the colour of your skin as having any relevance. The only people who tar the referendum with that brush are those who’ve the most to lose, namely people in the gravy train of the political system. My experience of the Yes campaign is defined perfectly by this: “it’s not about where you come from, it’s about where we go together”. My other half is English and she is a very active yesser. She sees what it’s about.

        I sincerely believe a Yes vote up here will precipitate similar movements south of the border. A modern family of nations working together as equals on these islands will be better than the current relationship where everyone feels disenfranchised and the lucky few screw us mercilessly.

  107. Dave Jackson says:

    Not pro or anti indy! And it won’t affect me either way. But one of the many things about this that makes me laugh is this constant soundbite of, ‘WE can run ourselves’, or ‘WE are capable of….’ et al. Not that I doubt for one moment that Scotland has enough capable minds, but even in the unlikely event of independence being implemented, this idea that it’s going to be some kind of Rousseau-esc ‘proper’ democracy, where everyone, (‘WE’) has a ‘say’, is just crazy! The way that some of the ‘Yes’ supporters address this subject…… well, it’s as if there’s going to be some kind of system akin to Athenian democracy, with Pericles, and the black and white stones, and EVERYBODY having direct input into every decision. Wouldn’t it just be more expedient politicians looking after themselves, just like everywhere else on Earth? OR would it be all of the above, and in addition, all of the people that you currently dislike will become your friends, and the weather will improve, and it will just be some kind of blue and white utopia?
    Yes OK, no one need point out the silliness, but my point is this; whilst the ‘NO Campaign’ seem to concentrate on such things as currency, jobs, ‘international standing’ etc, the ‘YES Campaign’, when faced with something awkward, allude to crossed fingers (a currency union), and the aforementioned.
    No point having a go at me, I’m in England, and we only see snippets of this on Newsnight. And I’ve nothing against Scotland. But if I were Scottish, and picking this up the same way, then I’d have some serious reservations about Mr Salmond’s seemingly half-thought-through ideas and William Wallace-esc flag waving.
    I’ve just watched a few minutes of the debate between Salmond and Darling, and Salmond didn’t even have anything prepared when Darling pressed the currency issue. It just looked a bit ‘Passport to Pimlico’ to me. Although to be fair, when he started waffling about his ‘plans’, (or lack of them), a large number of the audience jeered. There’s obviously a fair few people up there not blinded by the talk of a new utopia.
    Also, another program broadcast in England, sounded out some ‘Yes’ supporters. Turned out that the majority of them were multi-millionaires living on huge estates! Not really much of a risk for them is it?
    The main surprise for me is the ‘hope for the best and we’ll be fine’ attitude of Salmond, given that he claims to have dreamed of this all of his life.
    I’d be very, very wary if I had a vote.

  108. Stephen Thompson says:

    Well, the arguments have been aired, for what they’re worth.
    Let everyone who was alive the last time we were independent, vote yes.
    I’m going with jobs, currency, NATO, security, Britain, the EU, and the new powers to the Scottish Parliament. And with that, a thousand other lesser, yet still very irritating things, (pointless new legislation, passports, licences, vehicles etc, etc), ALL FOR THE SAKE of Alex Salmond’s career, and something completely intangible, I’m voting an emphatic NO! Not sure how any of this makes anyone more or less Scottish? Who thinks we are the same country as England now? Not many south of the border, that’s for sure! Are we forced to say that we’re British? Or do we now say, (and have always said), that we’re Scottish? As if we get a raw deal??! Everyone outside West London gets a ‘raw deal’! Maybe it’s something to do with being nearer the border. I’m many miles away, and quite happy as I am. More nationalism can take a ‘running jump’! I’d go with devo-max, or autonomous regions like Spain, or federal, like the U.S.A., but definitely NOT the panto that Alex Salmond is offering. Once he’s finished poisoning our relationship with England and Wales, I hope a vast majority of Scots agree with me. Scotland is great! It wouldn’t be ‘better’, or more Scottish by being driven into the ground!

  109. Paul says:

    fact is, if Scotland votes for independence, the remainder of three super soft UK government would completely pander for Scotland and entirely wipe their debt, give them the pound and the remainder of the UK would suffer.
    yup, the faith I have

  110. Hughie McDong says:

    Whatever the outcome of the vote is Salmond and his Nats have poisoned the relationship between England and Scotland for a generation. Wales and NI have not been offended as much but they do feel left out in the cold as they do not have a claim on oil so have weaker but purer arguments for independence. Ironically, the Nats may get their independence if English Nats take off because I think it will be 60:40 in flavour of No. It takes a brave voter to say out loud that they will vote No. I bet the pre vote polls and exit polls will show a tight race but the voting booth is private. There will be a big story following a No vote because so many people claimed to have voted Yes. It’s a much quieter life.

    • Steve - It's not that bad! says:

      Absolutely!!!! Salmond is an horrific piece of filth, who, following a ‘NO’ vote, should be charged with treason! As you say, he has single handedly poisoned the English/Scottish relationship for a generation, and turned what used to be ‘banter’, into utter vitriol! This thread is evidence of that! I’m sure that more than half of the English posters on here, had no animosity towards Scotland before Salmond and his acolytes got to work. And if any Scot thinks that the more robust postings on here are unfair, then you should try listening to the moron from south of the border, constantly accusing English folk of being little more than slave traders. We no longer blame Germans for WW2 Alex, and that was less than a lifetime ago, not hundreds of years!
      And how popular do you think Scotland would be with Salmond as leader following a ‘YES’ vote? There’d be far more ‘political mileage’ for an English politician to be ‘evil’ to Scotland, and that’s all because of Salmond! (Does anyone remember his performance at Wimbledon??) There’ll be no pound, that’s for sure!
      As Hughie states, VOTE ‘NO’ for God’s sake! And let’s try and repair some of the damage!

  111. Smithy says:

    Visit housing estates in England and you will be greeted with some of the most vile abuse you can think of, then go and pay a call at the pub just round the corner, and again you will be treat to some of the most evil glares from ‘the locals’, who will stare you out of the pub before you get the chance to order your drink.

    Are these people the local English folk? NO, they are foul mouthed Scots who are claiming all sorts of benefit, spending it on drinking, taking heroin and smoking dope, and taking great pleasure in continually slagging off England and the English with words like “see you ya inglish bastard”.

    If by chance you confront one of these mindless cretins on his own, the ‘brave haggis’ will then come all innocent and say “it wusnie me, dinny blame me”, Scotland the brave? pah!

    Like some have said on here, if they want indy, then let them have it, at least they can then take these parasites back ‘hame’ and good riddance.

  112. Kieran says:

    This article is ludicrous and based on a littany of inaccuracies and false assumptions, evidence of someone who really hasn’t done their research. If you’re going to try and write some serious political commentary then I would avoid just regurgitating whatever the mainstream media say. Think for yourself, research and evidence your points, instead of trying to pass of a stereotypical and bigoted point of view as economic fact.

    • Refutation requires things like facts and arguments from facts, Kieran

      • Kieran says:

        Yes, of course. Could you point to evidence of the ‘massive subsidies’ that England makes to Scotland please? Scotland raises 9.6% of UK tax revenue, but receives 9.3% in public spending. This doesn’t include tax duty from Scottish goods sold at English ports. If you remove Scottish oil from the UK economy then it becomes clear just how much Scotland does contribute to the UK economy. Scotland pays its way in the UK. Alistair Darling himself in 2008 admitted that Scotland’s oil has been underwriting the UK’s inability to balance it’s books for decades.

        The second major error you’ve made is your misunderstanding of how bank bailouts work. Yes, RBS and HBOS have their head offices in Scotland, however banks are bailed out proportionally by the states in which they do business. This is why Standard Life were bailed out by over £200 billion by the US government despite their head office being in London. In the case of RBS and HBOS 90% of their business is done in London. Therefore it is irrelevant to refer to ‘English’ and ‘Scottish’ banks, the responsibility is not determined by the location of the bank’s head office. The state of the UK deficit is entirely the result of the way the Westminster government decided to handle the banking crisis.

        On that point, I agree that Scotland should have it’s own currency and central bank, eventually. However, I think in order for Scotland to be able to pay it’s share of UK debt in the event of a yes vote then a temporary currency union would be best for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

        Thirdly you quite often refer to ‘gifting’ Scotland civic buildings etc. Gifting would imply that Scotland hasn’t contributed to building, paying for or the upkeep of these buildings, many of which have been in existence since before 1707. The Westminster government would be in no more of a position to ‘gift’ these buildings than Scotland would, as you point out, be able to make a claim on public buildings in the rUK.

        Moving publicly funded research from Scotland to England is impractical and unneccesary for several reasons: 1) after a potential yes vote there would be 2 years before independece, by which point most research projects would be completed, 2) any research funding already allocated would have came from UK research council budgets, which Scotland will have contributed to anyway, and 3) research institutes are chosen on the basis of their being able to carry out the research. It might not be possible to move the projects to England, and doing so would ultimately disrupt the research to the point of rendering the exercise pointless.

        Apart from those main points, your assessment seems to based on a wholly negative view of Scotland as part of the UK in general. Your assertion that we are a nation of scroungers, and your often hinted at concern that, should Scotland gain independence, we would try to rip off the rUK, reflect negative mainstream media discourse and age old Scottish stereotypes. Surely you are capable of seeing beyond this, rather than assuming Scots are one homogenous group to which you have assigned a number of unfounded and borderline bigoted attributes? Why do you have such a negative view of Scotland and its people?

  113. Smithy says:

    Kieran asks Robert “why do you have such a negative view of Scotland and its people”, maybe Kieran should ask the same question to the Scots, who appear to be born with an inbuilt bigoted view and hatred of England and its people. England got along well enough without Scotland before the union, so why shouldn’t England get along without it if Scotland decides to vote yes to the break up of the union?

    Why is it that thousands of Scots decide to come and live in England rather than remain in the land they claim to ‘love’, yet when they get here, all they ever seem to do is slag off England and the English people, if they hate us so much, why the hell do they want to come here and live with us?

    The Scots always have it in for England and its people, they are very anti English and anti social, they love to blow their own trumpet and hear themselves spouting off in their growling Glaswegian patter, try to be friendly and social with these sort of people and in return you will get all the anti English abuse you can think of. Many English cities, towns and villages have these sort of anti social louts living amongst them, will they be told to leave if the Scots vote yes? No! will they heck, but they should be, why should England keep Scotlands unwanted dropouts?

    • Kieran says:

      Independence, believe it or not, isn’t about hating the English. Sorry to bruise your ego there Smithy, but we don’t really have a probkem with England it’s, more Westminster politics that we take issue with. Why do you have to make it about nationality? I’ve had many a discussion with English people who wish Scotland well and hope that we do get independence.

      According to you Smithy, everyone in Scotland is the same? We are all ‘dropouts’ and ‘social louts’ who hate the English? So none of the Scots in England work? Really, where is your evidence for that? What about all the English people who live in Scotland? They must be real masochists if what you say is to be taken as true. What about my English step father (who is voting Yes)? He must be a real glutton for punishment to come up and live here with all us ‘anti-English’ Scottish ‘louts’.

      You do realise that assuming an entire race of people to be the same, especially in a negative context, is racist right? Apart from that, assuming an entire nation of people to be inherently identical in their behaviour and traits, to be homogenous, is just stupid. Is everyone in every other country the exact same as each other: think about it. Scotland doesn’t hate England, it hates a political ideology that punishes the most vulnerable in society.

      I’m still waiting for an answer that constitutes an actual debate, rather than a string of anti-Scottish abuse. You might want to make it about Scotland V England Smithy, but that’s not what it’s about. I don’t know what you get in the media down south, but up here, unsurprisingly, England doesn’t really get a mention in the independence debate, because our gripe is with Westminster, not England.

      • Graham Longley says:

        Kieren
        Take no notice of an idiot.
        They populate both North and South.
        My son and his friend spent 17 days in Edinburgh and they have nothing but praise for the “ordinary Scot” helpful hardworking funny and kind,I found this with my time in the army.
        I have an inbuilt dislike for nationalism it breeds a peculiar kind of mean spirited anti ,North and South.
        Mr Salmond wether you like it or not has used this to good effect–he is just another politician
        full of all the political slippyness.I have followed his career with interest,my hes clever reminds me a little of Mitt Romney
        However it will make me sad to see the break up of the Union.
        What will the yes voters feel if their bid for Independance is rejected Will they all see it as a democratic process and likewise the No voters.
        Aaah there is much to be considered and whatever happens I wish all concerned the best, but I fear a lot of bile is yet to be leaked out to the detriment of us all
        take care

    • Graham Longley says:

      So you know all the Scots–I think not

      • Kieran says:

        Well it’s good to hear that someone is a bit more reasonable Graham.

        I have to agree with you on Salmond. He’s not a man I trust and I’ve never voted SNP. Not only is he a politician but an ex-banker as well, and his relationship with Rupert Murdoch and previously Donald Trump is worrying to say the least. It is a myth that all Yes voters support Big Eck, and in fact outside of the mainstream media most of the focus in Scotland has been on the arguments, not the people espousing them.

        The reality is that Scotland will have a general election shortly after independence day (if a Yes vote is returned). The SNP would essentially be defunct and it’s likely we would see another party in power. It would be interesting to see the Labour party return to what it should be doing if it was free of the Westminster Labour Party line – for example there is a group of Labour members for Independence, despite the official party line being against. People are looking past personal and party politics in this debate.

        As for nationalism it is, quite rightly, a dirty word. I can’t speak for all, and I’m sure some want independence purely because they’ve watched Braveheart too many times (as wildly innacurate as it is), but for most people I know it’s not about national pride, patratoics or an us-and-them mentality. It’s about our country being governed in the way that the Scottish people want. It is a strange situation to be governed by people in another country, who don’t even seem to have the best interests of England at heart never mind Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland. It’s an often repeated joke, but it’s true that there are more pandas in Scotland than elected Tory MPs, yet we are ultimately governed by the Conservatives. If you remove Scotlands vote from most UK elections over the past few decades then the outcome is the same, that is to say that Scotland’s vote is irrelevant: we don’t get who we vote for and therefore we do not live under a democratic government.

        In terms of breaking up the union, well that’s one way to look at it. In reality we still share the same island, we will have the same queen (although personally I would rather not), we will still be part of the Commonwealth, we will still be neighbours. There is no reason for relations between Scottish people and the people of the rUK to change. As evidence all you have to do is look at the Commonwealth, or the political, trade and other partnerships which the UK has with other countries. It would be no different with Scotland.

        I would hope in the event of a Yes vote that England or the rUK would not suffer as a result of seperation. If a new kind of politics and better social policy can be achieved in an iScotland then there would be nothing to stop the people of the rUK demanding the same from Westminster. In fact if Scotland developed policies that worked it would be hard for Westminster not to adopt them in the context of its Scottish neighbour succeeding ahead of it. Of course these are all hypotheticals, Scotland may not succeed, but we at least have the opportunity to change things. This is not offered by the parties in Westminster who all follow a neoliberal ideology, and who let that ideology, rather than fact and evidence, determine public policy.

        I think in the event that a No vote is returned then yes, it would be accepted as democratic process. However, in the event of a No vote Scotland will take its share of the further billions of cuts that both the Torys and Labour have confirmed will go ahead. I think after another term of that it is likely that there would be another referendum, especially if there is a Tory-UKIP coalition.

      • Graham Longley says:

        It is all so sad,as I have never seen Scotland as seperate no more then Cornwall.Wales or Ireland
        There is no dount that many in the South do not recognise the major contribution the Scots have made to UK life.We down here will be diminished without the Scots forthright input if it is yes.
        Whatever happens Mr Salmond has muddied the waters,How I dislike that Thatcher woman for spoiling it all.
        I Personally am to old to let it effect me other than emotionally,My son and Ian his friend said it will be a NO vote.
        You I know feel remote from Westminster,but you are no more remoter than I am philosophically from the politic.
        Kieran is it not strage that the very people who seek power are the very ones we do not want to have it.
        With regards to the acceptance by the yes/no brigades—I believe the yes people may find it more difficult to accept–everone is not like– thoughtful
        Shall have to move to Scotland!!!!!
        Take care
        Graham

  114. Smithy says:

    Kieran.
    Please don’t jump to assumptions, nowhere have I said ALL Scots, nor the whole Scottish nation. I think you know the sort of Scots I am talking about. And YES I do have Scottish friends and relations, and even they say that many of the ones I am speaking of give other Scots a bad name and reputation.

    Graham.
    Before you also jump to assumptions and start calling folk idiots, you want to try living amongst these type of people, I can assure you that after many years of continual abuse from these sort of Scots, that you also would get rather cheesed off with their attitude and antics, and that you would get rather bad tempered and grumpy about them, and wish that they would bugger off.

    Fair enough, it may appear that I am stereotyping all Scots, but I can assure you that I am not, I am married to a Scot, and she knows the sort I am speaking of, and she says that they are nothing but drunken trouble makers who always want their own way.

    I very much understand the Westminster problem you speak of Kieran, and I think that if the English people had a vote, then they would also want to get rid of the Norman yoke and replace it with their own all English run parliament and government, so yes, I do understand.

    I think Graham might have hit the nail on the head, but how would Scotland cope with the mass influx of English folk coming up to live in Scotland to get away from the Westminster curse.

    • Kieran says:

      Personally I’d welcome them with open arms, we’ve got more than enough space up here!

      • Graham says:

        Kieran—especially on Ben Nevis!!! eh
        NO matter waht happens in the vote control will lie with the rich and powerful not just in our little island ,but in China USA etc and the global financial markets
        Politics is a dirty business and I doubt if it will be any better if independace is gained as the greedy go for the relitively small pot .
        You will need good honest people,there are plenty up there–but they do not seek power.
        Kieren go for it ,you may make a difference,but keep an eye on your back.
        Finally I am of Celtic descent and am now in the final throws and am sad to see that people in such a little place as UK cannot see behond there own backdoor
        Take care
        Graham

    • Graham says:

      Not making assumptions regarding people–I have been in some tough enforcement situations in my time Your post was somewhat vitriolic,when what we need is cool heads and commone sense.
      I am fully aware of some moronic Scots,along with Irish,Welsh English etc etc.__Iwas a regular soldier==
      The point I was making to Kieran was not to respond to silly posts.
      Personally I want the Scots to stay,but the emotions have been stirred.
      I always think of myself as British first.
      I readsome of the posts on hear and despair.
      Cool and calm
      take care
      Graham

  115. Smithy says:

    I think that Ben Nevis might get rather a little overcrowded.
    And I agree that politics is a dirty business.
    Being of celtic descent means that your ancestors do not originate from Britain, as no celts originate from Britain, most likely they came from the Germany/Austria area known as the Hallstatt zone.
    Yes, I can see that my posts do seem vitriolic, but after many years of putting up with uncalled for abuse, threats and nasty remarks from these sort of folk it does tend to make you angry. They have even made nasty remarks about my lovely Scottish wife, so I won’t allow that, and at times have had to resort to fisticuffs with these morons, but with being an ex soldier I can defend myself.
    Yes, some of the posts from both sides fo the border are rather despairing to say the least, and I can’t understand why some Scots think that the Roman walls were built to keep them out when there were no Scots up there at the time, I think they should read some good history books on the subject before making daft comments.
    I do try to keep cool and calm, but some of their abusive remarks do tend to try your patience.
    Regards.

  116. David says:

    The UK is already dead. 70% of its law are made in the EU. Then there’s the fact that its foreign, and defence policies, are made in America. Here are Westminster Government, REALLY IS, dismantling the welfare state. They have already revoked the benefits that where the entitlement of the British people, and replaced them all with a discretionary benefit system. They force recipients to do this or that, and make them work for their benefit. (Which is basically indentured slavery) they sanction, by stopping all benefit of over a 100,000 poor people a month. Then they declare another fall in the amount of people claiming benefits. Spin it as the success of their policy. All of this is supported by the fact that the government has drafted a law giving them the right to all of our communications. A few weeks ago the European court of human rights, decreed that it was unlawfully in accordance with treaties we had already signed. Their reaction was for all parties to rush through a new law that gave them that power. That is Totalitarianism. Something that the United Kingdom had always opposed (But the UK is dead). When there is no welfare state and they know all your life, even where you are, and what you are doing. You will be much closer together than all the no voters, (bar its leaders), ever wanted to go. They’ll be your Big Brother. For us Scot’s this really is about the country we want our family to live in that’s why we want to consign the remnants of the British empire to history, where it belongs. This is not about peoples devided. Its about people rejecting the cold austerity that will kill the last chance of a mutually and beneficial, and humane Scotland. I would love to pretend I have it wrong, but I know. There is no regime in history that takes powers it doesn’t wish to use. I hope enough Scottish eyes are opened and vote yes, and be a light for ourselves, and for the ordinary people of England the UK is gone. It was not simply a geographical union. It was a union of shared values, and ideals of fairness, and equality under the rule of law. It was a place were its people did not let the poor starve, or live in squalor. In today’s UK, the poor go hungry if they can’t get food from the food banks. While their stomachs are rumbling, their debts, and rent arrears climbing way past their chance to recover. Yet Scotland is rich. Not just in hundreds, and thousands, and millions. But in billions, and trillions, and only five million of a population. Nobody could claim to be a proud Scot, then vote to pass the wealth of our nation past the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and elderly. Into the coffer’s of the landed gentry, the fruit of privilege and decadent eliteism. If you do not look into this UK you imagine is real. Look, they have already repealed the law that underpinned the N.H.S in England already obolished all the benefits that Brittish people were legally entitled to, under the guise of simplifying the ssystem. Already taken the power to spy on all of us under the guise of anti terrorism. Wake up the UK is gone. If we want a fair country we need to get off our knee’s, vote YES and build it. We can forge treaties with our nneighbour’s that are mutually beneficial. Trade, and access and such. We can have a constitution ensuring, our values, our Scotland reflecting our hearts.

    • Graham says:

      It will not be any different yes or no,your an idealist if you think Salmond is any better then you have not followed his career very closely.
      However the Scots I have known in the forces and elsewhere have been splendid—but nationalism in all its forms make me writhe.
      Go for it may you succeed,if you do the crowing will be heard all over if you fail I know where the blame will fall.
      Remember what you wrote about who controls who well it will be just the same-global power and financial forces rule.
      It is a truism that once the revolution is succeeful it then applies its own oppression.
      Salmond wether you like it or not has played a racial card and the idiots north and south have come out of the woodwork.
      Good luck,you will need it–as for me Iam close to the end and the liitle bit of Scot in me is sad

  117. Smithy says:

    David.

    Your post makes a lot of sense, if only the whole of Britain would see things the same way, we might just get out of the mess we are all in thanks to our politicians. We walk into things with our eyes shut and those who can foresee the problems are totally ignored. I look back at how Britain used to be and it grieves me to see the state that this once great country is in today, it is a shadow of its former self, fortress Britain is now a free for all dumping ground of the world. The people are more interested in what is on the telly and what goes on in the soaps than they are in what’s going on in their country, whilst others are more concerned about what mischief they can make or what scams they can get up to. We are brainwashed by some of the rubbish that comes on the telly, and we are fed with political tripe by the spin doctors. It’s about time that the people of Britain woke up and saw the light instead of walking blindly into the abyss that the politicians are leading us into.

    Regards.

  118. Wully Wallace says:

    You should check your facts before you open your big mouth it shows just how arrogant and stupid the English are its wont be long now till we scots are finally free from you English bastards

    • Ah, a Scotch mind at full intellectual stretch…

      • Kieran says:

        On behalf of all rational and intelligent Scottish people, shut up Wully, you’re a bigoted idiot. Stop bringing us all down to your moronic level. And stop watching Braveheart. There is nothing wrong with the English, it’s the Westminster elite that are the problem. If we do get independence then I hope numpties like you have as little to do with the process as possible. SCOT

      • Kieran says:

        It’s Scots or Scottish, not Scotch. Scotch is whisky, if you’re American.

    • Graham says:

      Why the swearing??If you were a typical Scot I would be thankful of your absence.Please do not rise to the ignorance of others with your own ignorance.

    • Kieran says:

      On behalf of all rational and intelligent Scottish people, shut up Wully, you’re a bigoted idiot. Stop bringing us all down to your moronic level. And stop watching Braveheart. There is nothing wrong with the English, it’s the Westminster elite that are the problem. If we do get independence then I hope numpties like you have as little to do with the process as possible.

    • Smithy says:

      This is so very typical of the bigoted Scottish view of the English. You will find these sort of mindless cretins coming to live in England and doing nothing much else but slagging off England and the English people, and it is these sort of bigoted anti English remarks that angers the English and in turn makes them see the Scots in a similar way.

      There are idiots on both sides of the border, stop being one of them.

  119. Trueman says:

    Dear oh dear,
    Absolutely, unfounded utter rubbish.
    Where on earth did you get your information on how Scotland has been subsidised by England?
    I suppose you subsidised Wales and Northern Ireland too, how generous of you and I thank you for your comment, money and enlightenment.
    You can thank Scotland for your cannon fodder and the creation of your little empire on which you sit, we owe you big time!… NOT.
    Produce the facts and figures before posting delusions and fantasies please.

    • Graham says:

      Any sensible person knows that Scotland is an asset to the UK—but I despair at the Vitriol and bile that is being spilled on these pages.
      So what if England did help Scotland So what if Scotland did help England or Wales or N ireland.
      Reading many of the comment on these pages shows what an ingorant moronic money orientated nationalistic narow minded flag waving noth and south shower we live amongst

    • Smithy says:

      Where do you get the idea that the rest of Britain can thank Scotland for being ‘cannon fodder’, are you under the impression that the Scots were/are the main stay of the armed forces? Much English blood has been spilled defending Britain against invaders like the French and Spanish with no help from the Scots, in fact the Scots had the ‘Auld Alliance’ with the French, and it was the Scottish King James that broke the treaty of perpetual peace and invaded England whilst King Henry was away fighting the French with his main army. If it had not been for the outnumbered men of Lancashire, Cumbria and Yorkshire defeating the massive Scottish army at Branxton (Flodden), King James of Scotland would have sacked England.
      We owe you traitors nothing.

      • Kieran says:

        I think they’re referring to the fact that the Scottish TA are the first to be sent into any conflict the UK commit troops to.

      • Smithy says:

        “The fact that the Scottish TA are the first to be sent into ANY conflict the UK commits troops to”.

        Ummm.

        1879, Zulu War, iSandlwana, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot.
        1879, Zulu War, Rorke’s Drift, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot.
        (Don’t be fooled by the 1964 film ‘Zulu’, it wasn’t a Welsh regiment, in fact there were only around 15 Welshmen there).

        No Scots TA there I don’t think, mind you, it was after 1900 when the Army reserve was made a TA force.

      • Kieran says:

        Well done Smithy. You’ve shown a great deal of pedantry and stupidity there. Yes there was no TA force until after 1920. So, anyone with half a brain would assume I was talking about conflicts that occured when the TA were in existence. So rather than refuting my point, you decided to be a pedant. Well done, how clever you must feel. You could have contributed to the debate there, made a valid point, but never mind.

        More important than your irrelevant comments is the fact that the UK government routinely send our soldiers to illegal wars without the consent of the people. And when I say ‘we’ I mean the whole of the UK. Where’s the democracy there? The Westminster government is happy to lie to it’s people in order to benefit their buddies’ oil companies, dacraficing UK citizens in the process. Furthermore, the UK is constituted of 4 countries. Yet none of those 4 countries have an individual say in whether or not to go to war. The Westminster elite decide for all without the consent of the people.

        Those in favour of independence want a country where the people are listened to, where we have a say. Where neoliberalism isn’t the ruling ideology putting profit before people. Where we aren’t controlled by an increasingly rich and out of touch elite while the gap between rich and poor increases. We live in the time of the ‘working poor’ where people in full time employment have to use food banks. Where the once great welfare state has been transformed into a punitive workfare state. Where the NHS is slowly being sold off to the highest bidder. Where women still don’t have equal pay to men. Where racism and the scapegoating of immigrants is the leading social narrative. We (the UK) are one of the richest countries in the world, yet we have millions of children on poverty and some of the lowest pensions in Europe. Where pensioners have to choose between eating and heating. Capital has become more important than humanity.

        If you want to dislike the Scottish people for wanting to escape that, then I pity you. If you don’t want better for you and yours, well then you’re an idiot. Take 5 minutes to look beyond the bullshit. Put down you’re fucking Daily Mail and turn off the BBC news and actually seek out something that isn’t spoon fed to you. I’d be willing to bet that many of you would do the same in my situation if given the opportunity to better your country. I just want better for myself, my family and my friends, and the Westminster government has consistently failed to provide that. Not only have they failed to provide that, but they have systematically acted in their own self interest and left the rest of us to rot.

        All Scotland wants is to be a normal, egalitarian, prosperous country, like many other countries in Europe. To not be dragged into illegal wars by America, and to not have to sit idly by, powerless to affect government, while policy after policy acts to make us poorer and degrade what used to be good British values by encouraging a culture of individualism and turning us against each other. If you don’t want that for whatever country you live in then there’s something wrong with you quite frankly.

        It’s time to get the sleazy corrupt politics of Westminster to fuck. If nothing else, then the indy debate has at least led people to question the status quo. Even if we don’t get independence, then I hope the debate can help reform UK politics in general. If the staus quo continues then basically we’re all fucked. End of.

      • Graham says:

        We all want a decent egalitarian country–but you will not obtain that as long as politicians are in charge.If you think Salmond and his cohorts are ant different the you are in for a shock.There is already a jostling by the money grabbers and nationalists for positions of advantage.
        I personally dislike Tory elistism and nationalism in equal measure.
        As a working class man I am aligned with all the working class people in the UK.
        When you post try and keep a swear word out.
        Do not rise to the ignorent people on here.I refer you to my previous post in reply to one of you rants
        We need Scotland not for its rescources but as an assistant in keeping the UK from total toryism ..Oh the pool of life has been truly muddies by idiots north and south.
        Already the pound has dropped as the money men try to make an extra buck to add to their millions.Global forces will decide how we all live and die not some petty politician or nationalistic flag wavers north or south
        Good luck to Scotland whatever happens,but its the emotions that are leading the way.

      • Smithy says:

        Nice one Kieran, but I will ignore your first comment and put it down to being a bit of a self righteous rant, relax and have a coffee.

        If you had read my post further down you would have seen that I have already said that it is Westminster where the blame lies, and that it is about time that the English had their own parliament, and that the Scots want to be free from Westminster and govern themselves, and who can blame them. So you are wrong, I do not dislike the Scots for wanting to escape, I hope that they do vote YES, it will hopefully give the English a kick start to want their own campaign for independence so that they can make their own decisions without any outside influence.

        You make some good points, but I rather think that you are hoping for a sort of Scottish Utopia if you vote YES, and I suppose it would be the same if the English ever get their independence, they would also be hoping for an English Utopia, but things don’t always work out the way we want them to, hence the saying “Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t”. Either way, YES or NO, this has caused some panic down at Westminster, but I do hope that the vote is YES.

        P.S. I don’t buy any daily newspapers nor do I believe all that is reported on the TV news, they only tell you what they want you to belive, I do have a mind of my own.

        Again Kieran, sit down have a coffee (or tea), and relax, what will be, will be.

      • Kieran says:

        Yes, thay was a bit ranty. Wasn’t in the best of moods at the tine for reasons unrelated to this blog, so apologies for that.

        It isn’t so much that we want a social utopia, we just want better. Better doesn’t equal utopia, it equals normal. This article states it better than I can, this quote particularly:

        “[W]hen people say that Scotland is different, that the social democratic aspirations of Scots are an anomaly, they are missing the point entirely. The social attitudes of Scots, and the policies of the Scottish Parliament, are pretty much standard for a European country. Scotland isn’t the exception, it’s the rule.

        The thing that’s weird isn’t even England. Most English people are against privatisation, and though there is a small difference in attitudes towards social security, it’s nothing that won’t change over the years.

        No, the thing that’s an outlier is Britain. As the Radical Independence Campaign has pointed out, it’s Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe’s third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

        It’s Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It’s British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It’s Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.”

        Full article:

        https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre

        So it’s more that we want what we should have as a stable prosperous European country, rather than seeking a grand social utopia.

        I think at this point, a week before the vote, I might need something stronger than coffee…

      • GRAHAM says:

        Kieren you make it sound as though we live in a terrible place.
        I think you will agree that the suicide rate of any country can be an indicator of it health
        so here is a list of European countries worse than the Uk
        France,Belgium Norway Hungary Sweden ,Czeck Republic Austria Poland Finland. and many others.,though not Germany of Course.
        With regards To pensions not all are better than ours and those that are pay infinately more into their pension.
        We do not have the highest infant mortality rate in Europe and those that are better are only better by 1 or 2 per 1000 .
        My father a great Eropean traveller would tell you how glad he was always to be back here–he like me has seen the other side of Europe the slums right wing loonies nationalistic idiots poor urban railways,sleeping on the streets black economies and I am writing about the major economies
        I could go on and puncture holes in your facts but it seems you are not aware of what goes on in Europe.
        This little island is not perfect but as a world travellor I can say it not that bad.
        In your heart can you say you are NOT a Scots nationalist I doubt it.
        Your posts indicate your feelings.
        Aaah nationalism will hurt us all wether it be South or North

      • Smithy says:

        Hi Kieran.

        No prob’s my friend, we all get a bit ranty now and then, it just depends on what sort of crap the day has thrown at us, put it down to a bad day at the office.

        We all want a better way of life and a fairer system, however, whilst we have the power crazy and the corrupt and the two faced politicians, we will always be used and abused.

        Every nation should have the right to decide for itself what it wants and how it is governed, so I don’t blame the Scots for wanting this, in fact I would like the same for England, but we have no representation and no parliament, we have to go along with the decisions made by the UK government in Westminster which most of us don’t agree with anyway. And here’s me thinking that a government was supposed to do things at the peoples request, ie, the people elect a government to do work for them, however, it seems to be the other way round, it’s always the people who end up working for the government.

        With some time to go yet before the big day, I would keep to the coffee if I was you mate, otherwise you might be too goggle eyed to put your ‘X’ in the YES box, by all means have a few beers, but keep off the hard stuff until the YES vote gets announced, then you can celebrate.

  120. Cumberland1746 says:

    I am English and a rational thinker. Scotland has never been a fully consenting member of the union. Its people whine, whinge and blame every malaise upon the English. Sooner or later it will leave the union. Might as well be sooner rather than later. Vote yes and get on with it!

    • Kieran says:

      Saying that all we do is whine and whinge and blame everything on the English is a bit of a stretch. I hear English people moaning about Scottish people whining more often than I hear Scottish people whining about the English. And I live in Scotland. Don’t be so arrogant and vain as to assume that all the Scots do is spend their time thinking about the English, we really really don’t. I can’t believe this has to be said at this point, but do we think we could maybe give it a by with the stereotypical over generalisations? Yeah? Great.

    • Smithy says:

      You are right Cumberland1746.
      The reason why Kieran refuses to hear much of the Scottish bile is because he lives in Scotland, and of course the vast majority are Scottish. Unlike living in England, where there are nationalities of every description imaginable, and every one of them (especially the Scots), moans and blames the English for everything that is wrong in Britain and other parts of the world, when they should be blaming the source of their grievances where it rightfully belongs, and that is Westminster. They blame the English because the UK government are at Westminster, and Westminster is in London, and London is in England, so it must be the English to blame. UK governments have included many Scots MP’s and even PM’s, and they have made many mistakes and caused trouble amongst the population of Britain, but because Westminster is in England, it is the English that get the blame.
      It is about time that the English had their own parliament, and decided for themselves how England should be run and governed without any other sort of outside infuences, and that is what the Scots want, and who can blame them? So if they vote YES, it might just be a good thing for England and the English people, as all the agreements made by the UK government should no longer be valid, and we can get out of a lot of this EU crap at last. And why should Britain be told what to do by an unelected bunch of snotrags from Brussels? The English should start an England independence campaign, shake off the Norman Yoke and go our own way without anybody interfering, lets get free of the EU shackles and much of the other unwanted crap that the UK governments have doomed our once great country into, let’s get off our knees and stand on our feet without the burdens of having to support other countries who couldn’t give a monkey’s about us.

  121. Richie a says:

    Instead of being poetic , allow democracy to function. if Scotland decides to leave ….so be it. Then we can all reconvene and discuss.

  122. Richie says:

    I would be interested in the reverse argument of Scotland re-joining….

  123. Pingback: All you could ever want to know about Scottish independence | England calling

  124. Smithy says:

    If the Scots do vote yes and the Union ends, there is talk of what would happen to the Union Flag. Well, the upper half of the blue could be replaced with black (Cornish), and the lower half could be replaced with green (Wales). That way it would keep the same proportions except that the blue would be replaced by black and green, it wouldn’t look all that bad actually.

    If it all goes pear shaped for the Scots after seperation and they want to re-join the Union, there could well be quite a few problems to sort out. For instance, if the English have also won their independence, would they want to go back to the old ways and have other nations involved in what goes on in England, or would they enjoy the freedom of deciding things for themselves without any sort of outside influence? There would have to be some big decisions made before any sort of re-union could go ahead, and personally, I don’t think anyone would be interested in going backwards once the people see how better off they are without any outsiders telling them what to do. I don’t think that there would be many problems in helping each other out in a time of need, that’s what friendly neighbours do for each other, and although there is, and always will be, the ‘banter’ between the nations, I don’t think that England would ever see Scotland sink beneath the waves without coming to her aid, after all, we share so much history together.

    • Scott says:

      Why don’t we leave it as this.

      Why don’t the Scottish No voters move to England and the Scottish Yes voters…just fuck off. Ungrateful bastards.

      It’s all about money… Short term gain, truth is.. Long term The YES vote is stupid. I honestly think scotland should vote no, but at the same time I want them to fuck off. 5 steps forward 10 steps back, when there’s another world war in 50/100 years don’t come crying because you don’t have the resources. You have a population of 5 million. The UK is one of the greatest countries in the world. Your leaving it because your selfish and and infact naive.
      Open your eyes scotland. Don’t fix something that’s not broke. Your spend the next 25 years arguing what’s yours and what isn’t. When the United Kingdom should be going places.

      There’s people starving in Africa and all you care about is owning your own country. You already do own a country. You own 4.. We all share.

      Your not call jocks for no reason.
      Selfish, naive, stupid,
      Who would trusts a man who wears a skirt anyway?

  125. DawleyJock says:

    Just for the record and in despair that the memory of the Men and Women of the Countries Armed Forces is used to score point’s, Firstly remember WW1 And WW2 was fought by the Empire and Commonwealth Troops be they French Belgium Irish Scot’s English Indian Canadian New Foundland American Australian New Zealand to name a few the one thing those people did was take a bullet or get blown to pieces not for bragging rights in some Political spat but for Freedom and Liberty for all and still do today So can we not just show them a bit of respect please. Me I am Scottish born live in England with my English Wife I have Scot’s English Irish And Welsh Blood in me and hate no Country I tend to make my judgment on people as for Independence though against it if Scotland wants Independence so be it……..The rest will be down to Politicians they light the blue touch paper stand back and watch normal people destroy and fight each other then walk away no poorer than when it all started……Good Luck To You All and thanks well for a colourful read

  126. Ped says:

    Well, it looks like common sense has prevailed and we’ll now just have to wait and see what new powers our Scottish partners manage to bag for themselves. Are the once yes campaigners still going to continue voting for Shrek, though, or are they mostly going to return to Labour.
    All this turmoil – bah humbug.
    Meanwhile, local councillors continue with huge pay increases and the creation of privately delivered services and yet they don’t have the resources left to clip the communal hedges or kill a cockroach here and there. What am I blathering about? It’s a prelude to the next paragraph.

    I sincerely hope that the former supporters of the yes campaign continue to take an interest in politics and refocus their efforts on the joke-shop which is local government – and I don’t mean regional government. Even though it was a failure it would be sad if the interest in politics the yes campaigners generated was also lost. No, I don’t know what I’m talking about – I’m a commoner.
    But I do know I am happy to still be a part of the UK although, by the same token, I wouldn’t have begrudged our neighbours independence if they had achieved it. What I do know is that I’ve had enough of politicians trying to pull the wool over my eyes while they build their little empires.

    Anyway, hard luck Scotland, but let’s hope something good comes from it all, regardless.

    Ped

  127. Smithy says:

    Well, it just goes to show doesn’t it, the Scots can’t live without the English, so will they now stop keep slagging England and the English off? NO! will they heck as like, they will still keep on hating us even though they can’t live without us.

    But now what will happen I wonder? There will have to be a lot of talking at Westminster, and as a result of all this, maybe, just maybe, it might gear the English into finally getting their own representation and parliament, where they can vote on English only matters without the other nations being involved.

    But whatever happens, there will have to be some changes made, and hopefully it will show those at Westminster that people are totally fed up with their unfair system, and that the people of the UK want to be heard in regard to what goes on in their own nations.

    There will have to be some serious talking done now, Westminster has been getting away with it for far too long and it is about time that there were some changes made, the people also have a voice but those at Westminster don’t listen, maybe after this they will, but don’t hold your breath.

    • Graham says:

      Smithy I am beginning to think you are too far gone for sensible discussion,you seem to be a spiteful type

      • Smithy says:

        Graham, I can have sensible discussions with sensible people, however, try to have a sensible discussion with the sort of Scots that live around this area and all you get is abuse from most of them, and that is what angers many of us. We try to be friendly towards them but all we ever seem to get is the all too familiar angry glare and snarly Glaswegian anti English venom, so it does tend to make folk a little spiteful.

      • Graham says:

        Smithy I totally agree,but they are the yobbo element and the only way you could have a discussion with that kind of person is on a personal level in an approriate environment.I have had the same problem with BNP supporters.Religious fanatics and ignorant people who allow emotions to cloud the facts.I always ask a question of the abuser.
        Recently I was called ajerk so I asked the person why he felt the nedd to insult me instead of solving the problem–down went the phone–poor fellow lost the plot.
        These type of people abusing etc
        It all depends how you think ,I think British.
        Some time ago I watched a programme on football supporters. —well grown men crying because ther team had lost or getting stoned when thay won.How would you reason with these emotionas .Again I would stand up for their rights.
        You are no doubt a decent chap and i do understand how anger effects people,remain cool and the keep the brain in gear. something I dont always manage.
        take care

  128. Tony English says:

    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All turned out to be shite after all! ALL JUST GOB-SHITTERY!

    Looks like you still need your bottoms wiping, and your hands held from the mother country, ENGLAND!

    Now, get back to your lard, your skirts, your alcohol and your heroin. Oh, and your moaning of course!

    And prepare to be told what to do for the next century or two!

    # ” Let the wind blow high, let the wind blow low.
    Spineless Scotland has voted ‘NO’
    Even though the English screamed, “fuck ‘O’!”
    Scotland where’s ya troozers?” #

    Salmond and his acolytes, AND THEIR COMMENTS, SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTEN!

    They’ve lost another war, we should use this opportunity to take the spoils!

    • Graham says:

      Well Tony is this you with your brain at full stretch.
      Why all the spite?,you lower yourself to the level of a nationalist.
      Pray tell me what war the Scots have lost–Culloden I suppose you are would be referrring to.
      I would encourage you to read history,you would be amazed at the contribution made by Scotland to the wellbeing of this Island of ours
      I will give you 4 telephone ,Television,Penicillin,insulin and I could go on and you would be impressed unless you are to far gone to appreciate talent

      • Smithy says:

        Culloden was a British Civil War. The rebel highlanders were up against the government forces and there were more Lowland Scots fought against them on the Government forces side. The Scots have lost more times against the English than you may think, I won’t list them all it would take too long, but try the battle of the Standard, Northallerton or Branxton, Flodden, maybe Halidon Hill, or even Homildon.

        As for inventors. Telephone, Antonio Meucci. Television, Philo T Farnsworth. Insulin, Banting and Best. Penicillin was discovered by accident in St Mary’s hospital London. Fleming did not have the resources nor the chemistry to take the next steps at isolating, purifying or figuring out which germs it was effective against, that Task fell to Dr. Howard Florey of Oxford who helped Fleming and also worked with Ernst Boris Chain.

      • Graham says:

        Excellent I was just trying to say that good people are good and bad are bad wherever they reside
        Discover does not mean develope

      • Micky Johns says:

        It’s a bizarre argument! There are many more including Dunlop, Watt, Ramsay et al.
        But it’s as if you somehow want to take a kind of vicarious credit for the achievements of these people.
        This is exactly what was wrong with the whole independence issue. All Scots together, living in this new utopia, and everyone loving everyone else because of the past. Ridiculous!
        This has been an utter disaster for Scotland. If you seriously think that a reference to Alexander Graham Bell is going to repair the damage done by Salmond, his vicious anti-English sentiment, his cronies and his followers, then you’re sadly mistaken.
        This has gone down like the proverbial ‘shite on the carpet’ in England. From Salmond at Wimbledon, to assaults on ‘Better Together’ campaigners, to demonising ordinary English people (WHO HAVE NO SAY WHATSOEVER IN SCOTTISH POLICY), to anti-English sentiment aplenty…………. ‘I could go on’.
        Before this ‘campaign’ started, the attitude towards Scotland in England, was either ignorance, apathy, indifference or support. (Unlike the attitude towards England north of the border). Even English Nationalists never mentioned Scotland in a negative light.
        Now, there is still apathy and indifference, but there is also a great deal of resentment and anger, and not without due cause. As well as Salmond, we had to endure the odd ‘debate’ where we could watch ‘ordinary’ Scots claim all the oil, claim the pound, reject the debt, and announce how much better their lives would be if the English would just stop exploiting them, and basically just bugger off! If the same vote were to be held in England right now, Scotland WOULD be independent!
        So a hearty ‘WELL DONE’ to Scotland! It just beggers belief!

      • Graham says:

        My goodness me you are an emotional fellow..Do not confuse reason with arguement
        I was trying to point out that the Scots have benifetted us all and were not the hangers on you appeared to believe.You are taking the view of the idiotic nationalistc and manipulative people and believing that is how all Scots think.I agree with you that the campaign has damaged relations for some people,
        As you will see by the result many Scots did not fall for the UTOPIA line and those that did,many were of the younger and more emotionally involved people.
        With regards to English nationalists,I can tell that if you did not agree with their views,no matter who you were then violence would ensue.,personal experience
        You did not have to endure debates you could have switched off.The YES voters were lead by a consumate politician .I read an interesting article about Cameron briefly it summised he was a sleeper for the yes vote.The yes campaign was poor.I deal with ordinary Scots on a regular basis and we have conversed on the subject and just like you they are angry at the way the yes people have been acting,causing a reponse of equal vileness from south.
        Several of my friends holiday in Scotland and all ay how good they are treated,in fact one is up there at the moment.
        My son spent 17 days working at the commonwealth games,When he came back he said how surprised he was by the kindnes of the ordinary folks ,just like us.Full of wit and humour–he however is a cool customer.There are nasty people all over and unfortunately I have had to deal with many of them
        Finally I see that you are angry,but dont make judgement in anger,but I would personally stand up for your right to speak what you will,even thogh I may disagree

      • Smithy says:

        Well said Micky, you have hit the nail on the head.

        And you are right about how if a Scot invents something it always gets credited to Scotland and the Scots, however, if an Englishman invents something it suddenly becomes a ‘British’ invention.

        That ‘show’ by Salmond at Wimbledon and all the anti English bile that was shown was totally disgusting. If an English politician and his cronies had done something like that at say St Andrews, Gleneagles, Muirfield or wherever, in support of an English golfer, they would have been made to apologise and then been booted out of the political party.

        We are all fed up about how thing are run down at Westminster, the Scots, Welsh and NI have a say in what happens via their own parliament and assemblies, however, the English have no representation, no parliament and no voice, we have to go by whatever the UK government say, and because the UK government is in Westminster, London, England, it is always the English that get the blame for everything.

      • Graham says:

        Rubbish,you listen to the idiotic Scots of wehich there are many,but equally there are just as many idiots all over.
        The ossies are right winginging poms oh oh were being hard done by.
        In the jungles of Malaya with Scots I was not hard done by for heavens sake stop your incessent negativity,who do you think you are a Scots nationalist

  129. Stow Crosby says:

    Well said!
    It’s a shame we can’t still have some of the ‘Independence benefits’…………. like a closed border!

  130. Smithy says:

    Who is going to cough up the money for all this charade, the British tax payer again?

    The English, Welsh and NI tax payers had no vote in this ‘Scotland only’ affair, so why should they have to help to pay for this farce, make the Jocks pay the costs, after all, it was their show.

    They had their chance to break free and be an independent country but they blew it and voted NO, well, at least that is something that they can’t blame England and the English for.

    The ‘poor wee hagisses’ might have been terrified of letting go of ‘Mummy’s Apron strings’, Aw! Diddums, Scotland the brave? Pah! don’t make me laugh. They talk and act tough and walk (or stagger) about like they own the place, but they have just shown that they are just like their bagpipes, all wind and piss.

    Pity they didn’t vote YES, I had my hanky ready to wave them good riddance.

    • Graham says:

      Smithy if all south of the border were like you,than no doubt they would have gone long ago.
      Fortunately some of us are better informed and do not let our emotions lead the way.
      The same applies to the same kind of person North of the boarder.
      I would however stand up for your right to hold that opinion

      • Smithy says:

        Graham, if these Scots want to come here and live with us, it is up to them to at least try to be friendly towards their hosts, however, most of them just want to take over certain areas and be in their own clique, and they tend to be as awkward and unfriendly as possible. If you saw how some of them behave, you would also want to get rid of them, they are a disgrace and Scotland should be ashamed of them.

  131. Jimmy James says:

    Well said Smithy! This whole thing was a diabolical liberty!
    And you talk of ‘Scots’ and their ‘hosts’. A bit like a mamal ‘hosts’ fleas! An uninvited, bloodsucking annoyance!

    • Smithy says:

      Hi Jimmy, I agree, and it’s not just some of the Scots that are doing it, and even the UK government are fleecing us and bleeding us dry.

  132. Wilf says:

    What gets me Smithy is that after all of the slagging off we’ve had to endure through this charade, not only are we going to have to pay for it, but our bloody government wants to bend over backwards, and reward them for it!
    I’ll tell you what Smithy, why don’t you come around to my house, force your way in, stand in my living room and claim that you own half of my stuff. Blame myself and my good wife for all of your problems, and then by way of appreciation, I will pay for a holiday for you and your family. Then Cameron may offer you a grant or something.
    Of course I’m being silly! You’d never do any of that, you’re not Scottish!

    • Graham says:

      Wilf what slagging off?? you mean the manipulative yes campaign and the morons who post idiotic comments and fervent nationalistic ideals–well it works both ways.
      I deal with many Scots and most are ashamed of the rabid comments,ther same as I am from the idots from south of the border.You never get tp the truth or real people if you respond to idiots in an idiotic way

    • Smithy says:

      Thanks Wilf, but with being an Englishman and (according to my wife), a gentleman, I would not dream of forcing my way into your abode, your good lady wife might get her rolling pin from the kitchen and start whacking me with it, LOL!.

      I think Graham might have forgotten some of the antics shown by Salmond and many of his followers and supporters, he maybe can’t remember Salmond’s behaviour at Wimbledon, or some of the anti English sentiments spouted by his followers, and as to some of the bigoted comments made by the ‘ordinary man (and woman) in the street’ Scot, well, what can I say, how shall I put it, ah! yes, the ‘slagging off’ of the English by some of the people from North of the border, was a tad uncalled for.

      Anyway Wilf, if I ever do arrive on your doorstep, I will bring a bottle of wine to have with our dinner, so you can tell your good lady not to have her rolling pin ready.

      Cheers.

  133. David says:

    Can we set up some massive English coat tails on the border for the Scotish to hide behind.

  134. Mr Vision says:

    Scotland! If any of you are still reading this, please take note. Please don’t vote SNP in the General Election 2015. I mean what would be the point of that? It’s a little hypocritical for them to stand anyway, but that’s not the point. The point is that it would be a wasted vote, and would assist in their being much more of the South East centric ‘Nasty Party’, which is about as anti-Scotland as you can get! If you want a UKIP/Tory, Westminster based coalition running Scotland until 2020, vote SNP! By all means vote for them for Edinburgh, but wrap yourself in the Bratach na h-Alba next May………. PAY A HEFTY PRICE! Anyway, you didn’t agree with them in the recent vote.

  135. Mr Vision says:

    Also, a vote for the SNP is a vote that will ‘help’ ‘us’ OUT of the EU! (see above). An obvious disaster! But Southern England is full of semi-literate morons that ‘think’ that the 1930s are a better place to be!
    THINK about an SNP vote very carefully in 2015!

  136. Eddie Grenville Deadson says:

    So what have we learned from this debacle?

    Well, particularly from the aftermath, and, the subsequent reaction of a few ‘top’ politicians;

    Next time your child is really naughty, you know, a nasty, selfish, ungrateful, spiteful, mouthy little bastard, don’t punish it, or offer corrective advice, just give it nearly as much as it wanted in the first place, followed by a reassuring pat on the head, and a reward for the tantrum; so as to verify that it was utterly justified. Then take a couple of ‘twenties’ from your wallet, and throw them away.

    At least ‘Austerity’ must be a thing of the past!

  137. C Diplomatique says:

    Just watched the Leadership Debate on ITV.
    Loved everyone ganging up on that deviant Cameron.
    And I must be getting old, but I’d shag the arse off Nicola Sturgeon.

  138. Andy says:

    I am one of the 55% that voted against the twats that demanded independence. I am British, I just happened to be born in Scotland. I have no truck with these idiots and if you look closely at the current lot that claim to want an independent Scotland you will find that they are in fact republican scum mostly of Irish descent who lost out on a united Ireland and are now trying to divide, and succeeding Scotland and the UK., It’s no coincidence that those who formerly supported a largely catholic labour party in Scotland have now en masse hitched their wagon to Nicola’s bandwagon. These people are dangerous and should be treated as such. If and when Scotland ever does become independent there will be a mass exodus of right minded people who want nothing to do with these republican zealots. I stand behind the UK ,and my British brothers and sisters in England
    God save the queen.

    • JamesS says:

      There is your brain-dead, unionist, catholic-hating Rangers-supporting bigot in its full glory.

      The embarrassment of Scotland personified. Fuck off to England and hump the queen for all the rest of us care you neanderthal.

      P.s. Scotland existed long before the UK and indeed England did. “British ” is just a term coined by a boy-loving Scottish king after he took over the throne of England. It’s a political construct designed to confuse racist fuckwits like your good self.

      • andy says:

        Now ,where do I start? Firstly what makes you think that I am a Rangers supporter? Next at no point did I use any profanity.You are exactly the kind of person that I expect to be an Snp supporter. I bet you used to vote labour, didn’t you? You are a complete tosser and you will never amount to anything. Go support your British hating football team with all your benefit grabbing fellow tims and complain about how you are the victims. The real victims are those have been regularly ‘Savilled’ by your beloved priests. Just to finish off you are with out doubt a fifth . Living in a community, taking all the benefits but hating the establishment. You sad little man. .

  139. Ah, I see you are fantasy Celt living in a spectacularly toxic fantasyland. Scotland was never a united kingdom before 1707. Then it was a hodge-podge of The outer Islands, the inner Islands and Highlands and, the only remotely civilised part, the lowlands, which had had the benefit of English culture seeping north of Hadrian’s Wall. Well into the 19th century the Scots living in the lowlands considered the Highlanders and Islanders as primitive savages who would murder them in their beds given half a chance.

    • JamesS says:

      Oh dear Robert, your dismissal of Scottish history in this way only shows your crass ignorance of the subject. Indeed, it’s only bettered by your inability to hide your hate for your fellow men north of the border. A bigot, without a brain, like the British nationalist moron who posted earlier.

      What I find hilarious when dealing with muppets of your ilk is that you characterise your history as civilised, indeed noble. Yet we all know your actual English ancestry was bent over and buggered by practically every major subset of people in Europe. The Romans, the Saxons, the Angles, the Jutes, the Norse and the Normans all humiliated your wee ‘race’. In doing so they changed ‘English civilisation’ and culture immeasurably, successfully supressing and eradicating any existing notion of people or race that may have pre-existed. You literally are the ‘Buggered Nation’.

      What you refer to as southern lowland Scots thinking the northern Scots were savages simply reflects the clash between the Norman dominion that crushed the English pervading Scotland. The brutal and savage ‘civilisation’ of Norman nobility naturally failed to understand a different form of society that existed north of the wall. To suggest one set of barbarians were better than another just demonstrates your general ineptitude and your underlying bias and hatred.

      You claim the norman dominion as your own, along with the Anglo-saxon dynasties, not realising that they extinguished any ideas of Englishness or nationhood your ancestors may have had. So to generalise English history the way you do as ordered and civilised, when it was actually repeated capitulation in the face of many enemies, while Scottish history was savage and barbaric is genuinely pathetic. It’s extremely complex and you know it and dismissing some other people’s history in favour of your own the way you do reveals more about you than anything else.

      I assume your rely on the general muppetry on here to never question your pronouncements Robert. It’s obvious from what you write.

      Regards.

      • SJ NM says:

        Such a load of eloquent bullsh*t from the Big Baveheart Book of History. The Normans had to conquer England by force to hold sway here, but Scotland was such a disorganised mess of a country they needed to invite Anglo-Normans to impose any semblance of government over that tribal shithole called Scotland.

        Scotland – much like England – has indeed seen waves of incomers from Europe and other parts of Britain, but that somehow does not in any way undermine Scottishness or Scottish identity, however since England has seen migrants and incomers throughout its history that negates any semblance of Englishness – what a surprise. Such hypocrisy is typical of anglophobic idiots like you are really ignorant about their own country’s history and instead rather than reading some real history like to try and spout their ignorant drivel.

      • andy says:

        I so agree ,I come from Irish protestant stock who came to Scotland in the 17 hundreds due to catholic persecution. I consider myself British and if the nationalists / republicans ever get their way I will never accept a Scottish passport or Scottish nationality. I am British born and proud.
        I am aware that I will get some online abuse for this post , but, I do not care. By the way has anyone ever looked into the origins of the names Salmond or Sturgeon? Don’t recall Clans of this name.

  140. Monk says:

    Is that it then? Been a good laugh!
    One of my resonating memories of all of this was an episode of BBC’s Question Time, (a nonsense, crypto-political panto that I usually avoid – “Does the panel agree that something bad that happened this week is really bad?” [I’m about to orgasm ‘cos I’m on the telly] – Jesus!), held in Scotland just prior to the vote. A Scottish student made a reference to Scottish people living/working in England, receiving abuse simply because they are Scottish. I’m sure most Scots know this to be rubbish, but nevertheless, I’d just like to emphasize that this is utter, utter nonsense! Whether or not the opposite is true north of the border, in reality, NOTHING like that happens south of it. If you’re Scottish and in one of the ‘hub’ cities; (in no particular order), Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham et al, and especially London, the Scottish accent doesn’t even register. That IS how it is! Speaking ‘Scots’ is not picked up by anyone, anymore than a Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham or London accent.
    Other than that, it’s better now that the flag waving has stopped. As for the 50 SNP MPs…… well, it must be a real struggle for them having to sell their souls, up sticks to London, and live and work in the capital; ‘surviving’ on MP pay and EXPENSES, whilst receiving all of that abuse from the uncivilized English. Life’s a bitch!
    And as a previous poster said, in spite of the SNP presence at Westminster, Scotland is being governed by the deviance that is Cameron/Osborne.

  141. EU Ref Stinks! says:

    Looks like it’s time to start this off again! Might be different after that ‘turkeys/Christmas’ EU vote in England!

    • Very improbable that the Scotch would vote for independence with the oil price going through the floor. Nor is there any likelihood of either the EU accepting Scotland as a new member because Scotland would be a net taker from the Budget and would be a signal to the likes of Catalonia that they could seek independence. The Scotch Numpty Party is whistling in the wind.

  142. Graham says:

    It is Scots not Scotch

  143. Blister says:

    You are all contributing towards a collective waste of time and energy…. None of you has a grasp on what the issues really are. You are brain-washed sheep, tottering towards your poisoned troughs, recycling crappy arguments that you overheard in a pub somewhere. Your bigotry and ignorance shall be the biggest contribution towards your own slumber. Why don’t you try to think and act constructively instead of pulling each other apart with petty crap. Grow up and fuck off.

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