The truth about UK oil and gas

The Scots Numpty Party (SNP) bases its case for the viability of Scotland’s independence  on the idea that wicked England has been “stealin’ ouir oil” and that  if only they had control of the tax revenues from UK oil and gas Scotland would become a Caledonian El Doraldo.  Sadly for such people a 2009  a  Scotland Office paper  “Scotland and Oil” dealing with the tax income from oil  and gas  fields around the UK painted a rather different picture. It concluded that:

“• If all North Sea oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland there would only have been 9 years out of  the last 27 when Scotland’s finances would have  been in surplus.

• Including all North Sea oil revenues the last year  of surplus was in 1988-89 and since then there has been 18 years of annual deficits with Scotland’s spending being greater than the tax raised in Scotland.

• Even if all oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland the total deficit would have outweighed the total surplus by £20bn since 1980-81. “ (see page 1 – all references below to pages without a url  refer to this url – http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/files/Scotland%20and%20Oil%20-%20Background%20paper.pdf)

So there you have it, the official view is that even if all the oil and gas revenues were   allocated to Scotland they still would not pay their way. Of course, a substantial part
of the oil and gas  tax revenue would not go to Scotland because of the fields  in
English waters.  Exactly how much is debatable, but  most of the remaining gas
is in English waters, viz:

“The SNP claims that Scotland would receive 95 per cent of oil revenue, but its calculation is based on the total revenue from oil and gas. Its opponents say that they do not take into account the large number of gas fields in English waters.

“THE EXPERT SAYS: Prof Haszeldine says: “The vast majority of the oil is in Scottish waters. With practically all of the gas in  the UK in the southern North Sea, that is in ‘English’ territory.” He says it is hard to separate the revenue from oil and gas. “(http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Can-oil-and-gas-fuel.2834598.jp)

There is also the intriguing prospect of  the outer Islands, the Orkneys and Shetlands,  not wanting to leave the UK or seeking independence.  That would take more oil and gas
revenue out of Scottish hands.

The fact that even  the total  oil and gas tax revenues did not bridge the gap between what Scotland received in money from the Treasury and what she contributed to the Treasury is unsurprising. The price of oil is high now but this is an abnormal. In the period 1980-2003, the price was always below $20 a barrel  apart for two years in the mid 1990s when it was a couple of dollars a barrel  higher.   (see page 3 “Scotland and Oil”) . The price did not rise above $50 dollars a barrel until 2007.

There has also been great volatility in the tax take in recent   years:

“In July last year [2008-9] sitting with the price of oil breaking new highs at $147 a barrel and  projected revenues for the current year [2008-09] at £13.2bn, finances were looking  incredibly good. However, sitting today with oil prices at $70 per barrel and projected  revenues for the current year [2009-10]  of £6.9bn the finances would be looking  substantially different and spending plans would have had to have changed.” (see page 10 “Scotland and Oil”).

At present the Scottish Parliament is in a very fortunate situation. It knows, more or less,  what revenue it will have to spend  for the coming financial year because its funding comes from the UK Treasury. Thus it is spared the  responsibility of raising money from its electors . It is in the same position as, for example, the BBC.

If Scotland were independent it would have to raise the money to be spent by central government.  That would bring a very different relationship between the politicians
and the Scottish electorate.   If  a very large slice of  Scottish government revenue was dependent on oil  and gas revenues , massively swings in the tax collected from year to year, as happened in the years 2008/9 and 2009/10 , it  would  make  forward planning very difficult indeed.  To understand just how volatile tax revenue from oil and gas  has been since production began see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11-11.pdf.
No electorate is going to be cheering if politicians are constantly having to change spending plans.  The worse case scenario  would be that the oil and gas revenues would be so low that  a Scottish government would simply not be able to fund  the ordinary business of government.  That is not so far-fetched because of the great difference between revenue and expenditure when oil and gas revenue is ignored.   For  2007/8 the Scotland Office estimated that  without including any revenue from oil and tax,  Scotland paid £45,191 billion  into the UK exchequer and received £56,285 billion back, a deficit of £11, 094 billion. (http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/files/Time%20Series%20Analysis%20of%20Government%20Expenditures%20and%20Revenues%20in%20Scotland.pdf).

Apart from the volatility of the oil and gas price, there is also the rapidly depleting reserves of oil and gas around  the UK.   Production has already fallen from just under  3 million barrels a day in 1999 to  about 1,25 million barrels in 2014. ( see page 5 “Scotland and Oil”).  The amount of oil and gas will continue to fall over the medium term and the quantuity  oil and gas extracted will be strongly influenced by the oil and gas price. The
lower it is, the less exploitation of the smaller marginal fields.  In the medium term Scotland can look forward to diminishing tax returns whatever happens.

There is a further fly in the Caledonian water.  As the price of oil and gas has risen and the
political volatility of  many of the major oil and gas producers has increased, increased interest has been shown in extracting gas and oil from shales. Most of the likely sites in the UK are in England or English waters.  http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/shalegas.html.
If this source of hydrocarbons proves to be as abundant  as its advocates claim, the demand for oil and gas from the ever more marginal fields around the UK will diminish.

There are many other economic dragons which an independent Scotland would need to slay, including dealing with their over-reliance on taxpayer funded jobs and how they would fund their share of the UK’s public financial obligations at the point of independence, but the volatility and shrinking of the UK’s oil and gas tax receipts  would be arguably their greatest challenge simply because of the heavy dependence the
advocates of independence have placed upon their continuation at a high rate.

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115 Responses to The truth about UK oil and gas

  1. Pingback: The truth about UK oil and gas (via England calling) « English Warrior

  2. efgd says:

    Thank you for that Robert. Your blogs are always informative and thought provoking. It goes to show that some politicians will not do the maths before they speak.

    • Thank you for the kind comments. I do try to produce posts which will not be ephemeral but be of lasting use so that the blog can be used as a resource.

    • Dave says:

      #### PLEASE READ #####

      I’ve ranted on here as much as the next man, ok possibly a tad more than the next man 🙂

      But never forget: never waste a vote not matter what it is for, never back down, never be afraid to stand up for what is right, be thankful you get to vote and that we all the live in a democracy, be thankful the English PUBLIC are no where near the cunts you sometimes portray we are and that the the Scottish PUBLIC are no where near the cunts we sometime say you are (or as I call it banter) 🙂

      God forbid there was ever a world war three but if there was id prefer to fight alongside a Scot, a Welsh man and an Irish Man than any other nation on the planet.

      If I was being honest I don’t actually care what happens it wont affect ANY OF US in the long run, what annoys me is the common misconceptions and stereo typical bollocks of it all IM not stopping you, IM not scared, IM not an Empire build fuck, I don’t want your oil or gas! When it gets shouted I shout BACK!!!!

      I would like Scotland to be independent as it is you right to be so, if you want it, and the UK government is not standing in your way, but their stance is they don’t want it to happen, that is different to stopping it, they have the right to so say no you have the right to say yes. they are not stopping you they are campaigning to stop it, and in all honesty as the elected UK government it is their duty to do so.

      I want independence for England and I’m as passionate about that as the Scottish are I just don’t get to vote for it.

      CAN WE ALL AGREE ON THING THOUGH??

      ## ALL GOVERMENTS ARE CUNTS NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM!

  3. It’s worth remembering that all oil and gas reserves beneath ‘U’K waters, and those areas agreed to be in the ‘U’K’s sector of international waters, are ‘U’K assets and at the dissolution of the union all of the constituent parts of it could make an arguable case for a share of their entire value. This might involve the Scotch government agreeing to pay over the appropriate proportion of the value of those assets as determined at the point of dissolution. The Jocks could find themselves with a very hefty financial burden after independence, which, of course, the English easily could force upon them whether they want it or not.

    It’s indicative of their mentality that they believe they hold all the aces in a game they can only lose, if they upset the dealer.

    • Chris says:

      William,

      I think you know deep down that when we ‘Scotch’ as you call us, as though we were bottles of whiskey, I think you know that England will not be seeing one bent penny of profit from North Sea Oil which lies in Scottish Waters. These just sound like the desperate words of a desperate man in a desperate situation, trying to cling to the furniture so that England is not stripped bare for all the world to see that it has nothing but the city of London to fall back on.

      • dave says:

        Again I will say the English are not desperate, desperate words coming from desperate Englishman so scared of independence what on earth are you on about?, it makes me laugh, we welcome it, we hope it goes though.

        We want independence the Scottish public do not, we are happy to go it alone the Scottish public are to scared to go it alone.

        You do not own all the oil and gas.

        Here is some maths then, this always gets banded about various forums:

        The Scottish put as much in as they get extra in subsidise, so the Scots go independent we no longer subsidise you as you no longer ‘contribute’; however we still get 10% of Oil revenues and most of the Gas revenues which we then keep so the English would be better off also.

      • Clever Trevor says:

        Please vote for independence so we can get rid of you moaning ” hard done by” Scots!

    • Euan says:

      Its indicitive of your mentality that you consider yourselves the “dealer” and that you control everything, always have done and always will do.

      Wheres the precious British Empire that the English would like to cling to so dearly now?

      Also, “force it upon them whether they want it or not” sounds like a rapist.

      • dave says:

        Why do the Scottish think we are not desperate please understand we would like our independence we just don’t have a choice we have less rights than any other UK nation.

        We are not trying to cling onto to anything we would like nothing more than our own full independence.

        It really does make me laugh it is the Scottish who are media brainwashed, you couldn’t make it up, you are obsessed with us your hatred for the English runs deep the English are indifferent we do not care.

        Take your independence your share of the oil your share of the debt and be gone we are happy for please understand this it is what the ENGLISH public want we want our freedom from your constant moaning and hatred go it alone please we implore you.

        We don not sit around banging on about you all day WE DO NOT CARE!

        For the love of God please understand this.

      • Paul says:

        It really does make me giggle when the Scotch bring up the ‘British Empire’. You were more than happy to fill your colonial pockets when it was in full flow, but now it is defunct it was all England’s fault – that is pretty low, treacherous and some what cowardly, I have to say. Not exactly how the Scotch like to portray themselves, is it? Funny that. I always remember watching Newsnight once were two Scottish people – a politician and that bloke from the Spectator – seemed to take pride in telling us that in reality it was essentially a ‘Scottish Empire’. That maybe down to interpretation, but please pull yourselves out from your denial, it’s embarrassing. Maybe, it’s the Scottish that need to realise that the Empire is over, as they seem to permeate my country like a virus.

        There is something you need to get into your selective memory: as an English person – like every other English person I have known – I do not care about the poxy ‘Empire’; or Scotland for that matter – we just see them as the school bullies sly weak accomplice, only fit for contempt. We KNOW this thing called ‘Empire’ that we’re continuously told about has gone, we just want our beautiful country of England back, devoid of any parasites.

        Please vote for independence. Thankyou.

    • Mike says:

      Would that not work both ways then and the jocks can get English based shared assets? England is far richer you trying to in perpetuity give the Scots a royalty? Your point is dumb they would suck England dry if this was the case. Jesus Scottish oil is a lot to the jocks but it is minor compared to the English economy you would be offering up as part of this mad idea! ^^

      • THE key issue when and if Scotland became independent the mineral rights of the waters outside the 12 mile limit comes under the law of the sea law which is superior to all other laws of the countries involved. With the trend lines of the borders being key to this. On the whole most of the current fields and future licenses would end up in Scottish waters most certainly a lions share. With some 2million barrels and day that is a reasonable tax take. The volatility which is oft brought into argument is no more or less than any other industry. Scotland has Oil, it has Gold possibly, not to mention the Whisky Industry add to that fishing some of the finest Farming there is much to build on including plenty innovation in computers and the it industry. If the no campaign can only come up with scare stories I say do your homework on the GERS figures alone for 2011 Scotland would have surpluses more than negatives as a government. Make it tax beneficial for business and who knows what the future holds. Note I did NOT SAY A TAX HAVEN I SAID A TAX BENEFICIAL PLACE. A billion of gold at roughly current values is only about a million ounces we need to find?? in the coming year lets hope governments south of the border are honest enough to outline that their economic plans are based on OIL REVENUE FROM THE NORTH SEA!

      • What you need to understand Stewart is the huge proportion of Scottish GDP which comes from public spending. As far as tax revenue is concerned that is simply recycling public money, It is the private sector taxation which is the only real tax gain. In Scotland that is small.

      • James S says:

        That’s a common misconception Robert. It is entirely inaccurate. The ratio of public taxation to private taxation in Scotland is nearly identical to the UK as a whole. That scare story like the subsidy junky scare story was debunked a long time ago. Scotland’s overall tax revenues were 118% of the UK’s per capita in 11/12, reconfirming a 32 year run where more tax was raised in Scotland per head than in the other countries of the UK.

        Here’s the latest graphic from HMRC covering the period since devolution in 99 and you’ll see Scotland far outperforms England and the other countries in tax generated per head. http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/taxgraph.jpg

        All this subsidy and state dependence nonsense was designed to stop the independence movement in its tracks. We have too much info on this now so it’s obvious to most Scots we’ve been lied to and that the subsidies were heading south.

  4. Ben says:

    thankyou, your blogs are excellent. successive UK governments have spent a vast, disproportionate amount of time and money; pandering to the Scottish and welsh. And we still get absolutely no thanks from them. Cameron shouldn’t be worrying about how to keep the ‘union’ together, he should be figuring out how he can get the best possible deal for the English tax payer, when Scotland finally does fck off.

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  8. Antony says:

    “The vast majority of the oil is in Scottish waters. With practically all of the gas in the UK in the southern North Sea, that is in ‘English’ territory.”

    A good indication of a weak, unhelpful mindset, irrespective of subject matter, is the habit of writing Scotland freely while placing an English designation in inverted commas. I’ve argued long and hard to be rid of this ‘british/English’ schizophrenia. It weakens identification with what is important, rendering it diffuse, and only confuses foreigners who might be sympathetic. We – or in this case Prof. Haszeldine – should pay more attention to language.

    A very interesting article. Another feature rarely taken into account in this debate is the Scottish contribution to getting the oil out from beneath the sea bed which, in terms of technology and infrastructure and finance, and aside from affirmative action-style employment quotas, amounts to what some assessments describe as the square root of zero.

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  12. James S says:

    William,

    I’m intrigued by what you meant by: “The Jocks could find themselves with a very hefty financial burden after independence, which, of course, the English easily could force upon them whether they want it or not.”.

    Shall we see you on the border with your tin hat and air rifle?

    Oil is only one part of the absolute vital resource called ENERGY. Scotland is a country of small population but with a vast wealth of oil, coal, and electricity generation potential. We have 30-40 years of oil and gas left (possibly more with the new drilling being proposed), currently amounting to 2/3 of the EU’s total oil production, 100 years of coal and coal gas based on the most recent estimates and 10% of the EU’s wind generating capacity and 25% of it’s tidal capacity. The plans already on the table will mean we generate up to 6 times our own needs of the world’s most vital resource – energy.

    England is an overpopulated and, in all but name, a bankrupt country dependent entirely on the goodwill of others to furnish them with oil, coal, water, electricity and food. Which country do you know has the infrastructure to supply it with much of these needs in the decades ahead?

    Oil, water and energy will determine the countries with the most influence in this century and England is bereft of much of any of it. A shortfall in either debases your whole economy.The 5 million Scots on the other hand are blessed with plenty of each hence our laughter at your xenophobic resentment and undermining of our prospects. Keep firing away though; the more you do the better the chances we will be celebrating our Independence Day sooner rather than later.

    Regards,

    James S

    • Mark says:

      An outlandish set of assertions, James. Any evidence or references for them?

      • HA HA HA HA superb, you english make me laugh with your brainwashed lunacy about how poor the scots are, the scots are well off loaded with natural resources as fresh water which you english are always begging for during hot summers, renewable energy which the english again will struggle to power your racist nation as your nuclear power plants are coming off line in the few years, PLUS JAMES OUTLANDISH ASSERTIONS AS YOU TYPE ARE WELL TRUE LOOK IT UP AND READ ABOUT IT FOR YOUR SELF, MIND NOW MARK DON’T GO ALL TEARY EYED ABOUT THE TRUTH

        ENJOY A LIFE TIME OF AUSTERITY ALSO ENJOY THE BLACKOUTS

      • Dave says:

        WOW! A Scot in full rant and pompous mode how unusual 🙂

        Well Done.

    • Alan G says:

      James S,
      Just to take one of your points, You state, quite correctly I am sure, that Scotland is blessed with “10% of the EU’s wind generating capacity and 25% of it’s tidal capacity. The plans already on the table will mean we generate up to 6 times our own needs of the world’s most vital resource – energy”,
      Scotland then has to sell that energy to someone. If England is, as you also assert “bankrupt”, who is going to pay for it ? Sell it to someone else maybe?
      The thing is electricity is very difficult and expensive to move long distances due to the losses incurred due to electrical resistance in the lines, which all in any case go via England. Ireland (North and South), might be a possibilty as customers, but they are not short of wind and tides themselves.
      The French nuclear power stations on their northern coast are much closer to most of England. In this case Scotland is hampered by the tyrany of distance.

    • Anne E. says:

      I would like the UK to stay together but Scotland, if you are going to go, will you please go soon. I feel like I’m in a marriage with a partner who belittles me but somehow manages to make me feel like I am in the wrong. Very confused and hurt. Please, if you want to go, just go and let’s be fair and reasonable about who takes/owes what. Then we can both start again and see where it gets us.

      • JamesS says:

        Oh my god, did someone just quote the Daily Hate Mail? Albania? Seriously? 2/3 of the EU’s oil and we’d be like Albania?

        What is sad about people like you is not that you’re being hopelessly irrational but that you wish for it to be so. I only have good wishes for every person on these isles and hope we all enjoy a good quality of life.

        England having it’s own parliament and making its own decisions would not make me feel threatened and turn me into a royal axxxxole like some on here. I certainly wouldn’t wish for it to fail and become Albania.

        Is this the true English sentiment coming out or has the referendum just brought out the bottom-dwellers who feast on hatred?

    • GC says:

      “Oh my god, did someone just quote the Daily Hate Mail?”

      Poison the well much? It’s in other papers too, so take your pick.

      “Albania? Seriously? 2/3 of the EU’s oil and we’d be like Albania?”

      The fact that Iraq is sitting on the the world’s largest oil reserve hasn’t prevented a massive level of state dependence, has it?

      “What is sad about people like you is not that you’re being hopelessly irrational but that you wish for it to be so.”

      Like an crazed idealogue, you assume automatic hostile intent in anyone who points out that Scottish independence isn’t going to be all it’s cracked up to be, or that the numbers don’t quite add up.

      “Is this the true English sentiment coming out or has the referendum just brought out the bottom-dwellers who feast on hatred?”

      The entire concept of Scottish nationalism seems to derive from, and is largely supported by “bottom-dwellers who feast on hatred”.

      • jamess says:

        Honestly, Iraq? You’re comparing the Scots wanting to run their own affairs free of the disaster of Westminster with Iraq? As you clearly believe the Daily Mail (oh how I laughed at that one), according to them it may be England that experiences a fate similar to Iraq based on the fact the most common name being given to infants in England is Mohammed!

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1324194/Mohammed-popular-baby-boys-ahead-Jack-Harry.html

        Get real man.

        Even if the numbers don’t quite add up as you claim, and most of the data suggests otherwise, there is more to a country than just a balance sheet. If initially or even long-term there is a drop in living standards most who want to ditch the corruption and trough feeding at Westminster are happy for that to be the case in order that a society more closely mirroring their beliefs is allowed to develop.

        For instance, who the hell are you or anyone else to tell us we can’t provide free education to our kids or free prescriptions to our elderly just because those same trough feeders have denied it down south? If you don’t like it, vote for a party that wants these things rather than complain about those North of the border. Every GERS report in recent years confirms we pay more into the UK than we receive so frankly stick your opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

        Not only that but from 1979 to 1995, during the Tory asset-stripping of the UK, William Waldegrave was forced to admit that Scotland had contributed 27 billions more in taxes than had been spent on it, even using his own extremely suspect assumptions, while the Tories had been in power. That’s £5300 per person North of the border. So this subsidy of the English (mainly the South) has been happening for decades and what have we had in return? Successive right wing governments that we didn’t vote for that have crippled our economy and infrastructure, created two generations of people without hope in the long-term unemployed and squandered the golden goose that keeps on laying, namely the North sea, on the fat cats in the South-east who have somehow bankrupted the country.

        Should we be grateful for this? Funnily enough this equally applies to you as whether we leave or not, the former-UK or FUK (ha ha) is in the absolute shi**er. It will be left with the largest sovereign debt per capita in the world, the second worst balance of payments in the world, little oil left to convince the bond traders to keep lending to you ( Mr Standard and Poors, you know that trillion we thought was coming over the next 20 years, well Salmond’s got most of it now – but we still have Trident!) which will almost certainly result in a downgrading of your credit-worthiness. Never mind the fact your economy is totally out of balance, overly dependent on imports (while the pound continues to be undermined by the madness of the B of E!) and your country is being eaten from within by your new fellow “Englishmen” who openly hate you. You should stop complaining about the choices we are facing and have a serious look at your own predicaments.

        As I’ve said before on here and others have elsewhere, the more I study this debate the more I believe Scotland is shackled to a corpse.

        Good day.

    • dave says:

      That is unless Orkney and Shetland decide to stay in the UK or go independent they hate Edinburgh as much as you hate us, so what them?

      England is not bankrupt again mindless Scottish propaganda that you believe, and any debt can be attributed to a Scottish PM who did have the financial acumen to run a country.

      We have our own Coal, wind and tidal resources, we also have 10% minimum of North Sea oil and most of the Gas fields.

      We would also still hold on to the Falklands which I think may have a little bit of oil! and the other overseas territories that one day could hold further finds, so go, be gone goodbye, it is what we The English public want.

      Not because we hate you but because we want our independence unlike your Scottish public who will be too scared to vote for it, yes that is right I said to scared to vote for it.

      We also believe it would be financially better for us and even you, also you would no longer have anyone to blame but yourselves you would have to grow up as you would be removed of your infantilism.

  13. christine walker says:

    Please Scotland – Go !!!!!!! The English are quite aware of your oil revenues . You have been bleeting about them since they were discovered . Had our prime minister refused a referendom or said that the Scots could not have Independance from England . We would of had a out cry from Scotland and more years of listening to there whining . Instead … he said yes go for it , the only thing he imposed was that the scottish people could not go for devo max . And your still bloody moaning .. get a life !! Wih the Scottish people having such a huge chip on there shoulder about England . I believe that what ever action David took with the Scots … it would of gone the same way … Damned if he did give them independance and Damned if he did not . Scotland keeps changing the rules as it goes along .. and they are truely a nasty race of people .

    • jamess says:

      “a nasty race of people”?

      To classify a whole 25 million people worldwide as “nasty” because one half of the union are considering making their own way in the world outwith the control of a corrupt and incompetent Westminster seems a bit harsh.

      If I were to resort to such moronic claims I could be forgiven for considering you a stupid brain-dead cow based on your vague premise. I won’t though as that would insult bovine quadrupeds.

    • Euan says:

      A truely nasty race of people wouldnt conquer and pillage half the world and then leave it to rot?

      Colonial Fcks

    • BUT THE BLEETING FROM THE ENGLISH IS MUCH MORE LOUDER THOUGH……..DON’T GO PLEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSEEEEEEEE SCOTLAND WE NEED (SCOTLAND BILLIONS OFF CASH) YOU

      • Dave says:

        Where has anyone on this thread said please don’t go??
        No one on this thread has said we need ‘Scotland billions off cash’ whatever that means 🙂

        Can you read?

        EVERYONE IN ENGLAND WANTS YOU TO GAIN INDEPENDANCE AND YOU CAN TAKE YOUR PRECIOUS OIL AND GAS!!!

        THE ENGLISH PUBLIC DONT CARE!!

  14. christine walker says:

    James
    Your country has just over 5 million people in it … the other twenty million left many moons ago . Just like sean connery for pastures greener like England and America to name just a couple of places . Since then these people have had children born in these countries … meaning they are No longer Scottish … Just so that your aware of this . Its like our Wayne Rooney is no longer Irish !! If there is enough people in your country first of all that agree on leaving the u.k . Then good on scotland … and if you do manage to make a go of it . Then it will deffinately knock the smiles of the face of the English people i agree .. if of course things do not go to plan ,,,, then the English are like the Scots in respect of they never forget … and as we are just a island at the end of the day … i am sure you will be able to hear the English laughing even in Scotland if it does go wrong . Yours without predjudice .

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  16. umakanta tiadi says:

    sir,
    i want o know that is there a company named Pinacle oil and gas company uk.

  17. sneditions says:

    mETHINKS YOUR CALCULATIONS COME FROM BIASED REPORT!
    WITH OIL DEMAND TRIPLE IN THE COMING DECADES IF NOT MORE THE PRICE
    PER BARREL WILL UNDOUBTEDLY ROCKET THERE ARE WEST OF SHETLAND BASIN FINDS
    TOO. SO ALL YOUR CALCULATIONS NEED BE DONE AGAIN AND AS FOR THE PAST WELL IT IS WELL KNOWN MAGGIE BANKROLLED ENGLAND ON THE OIL BONANZA.

    • dave says:

      So you will be giving Shetland their independence then? You can’t deny then this, as a: it is not your choice and b: it would make you hypocrites?

      If Orkney and Shetland decide to stay in UK or go independent what will you do then? It really does make me laugh why Scottish posters think it is so simple!

      The English public want independence, the Scottish public don’t, why this is? What are you scared of?

      • Sandra says:

        well the population of the islands is approx 100,000 – so far the petition has 1,000 not enough to indicate any wish to be seperate and strangely enough quite a few of them as english

  18. L.Baird says:

    i agree completely with james S here, what i cant understand is why there are so many bitter comments coming from english people here? are you jealous? if its not going to effect you in any way why are you even commenting on this? and by the way, scotland and its people have contributed much much more to the UK and the world than oil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries why is it so hard for you to understand that we have decided that we’ve been patient enough and just had enough of the idiots that are running/destroying the UK as it once was. if you had any sense you’d swallow your pride and be on side with us. maybe we could run england for you from edinburgh if you wanted? whats that? you dont like the idea of that do you….. there is absolutely no way why scotland and england, and the rest of the countries in the islands for that matter couldnt get on with eachother just as we do now. if scottish independence doesnt matter to you, then keep your stupid comments to yourself. what are you trying to prove?

    • dave says:

      Again a Scottish poster only looking at one side the bitter comments on here are from Scottish posters, the Scottish posters continually show their hatred of the ENGLISH.

      WE RAE ON SIDE WITH YOU cant you read?? We wont you to go, we wont you to have your independence, it is the Scottish who get to vote and you will not vote for it.

      If the vote was held today in England we would vote for independence now.

      ALSO ENGLAND DONT RUN YOU!! THIS IS SAME STUPID SATEMETEMNT THAT STUPID PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY WE DONT OWN YOU ARE IN A UNION.

      Your PM wants independence, your public don’t, just as the ENGLISH public want independence but the UK PM want give us our choice.

      Please learn to read and know the fact before you post rhetoric BS.

      • L.Baird says:

        first of all we dont hate the english, at least i dont i have many english mates. what happens is people that move to scotland from england solely because buying/building a house up here is more of a secure investment, they will build as many holiday houses as they can get away with too. but thats not the thing, the thing is MANY of these people that either live here or have a holiday house here do not even want to be here, they like the scenery but hate the locals, the remoteness, the limited shopping opportunities, midgies and bad weather. the openly moan about everything that makes the place what it is, the are first into the local council meetings to make a noise about there being no street lights or some other nonsense, and they’d like it to be the way it was in bristol or yorkshire or wherever they came from. included in with these people are the retiring people from england who come here to get the free prescriptions, they’ll leave there house to a family member who will usually use it as a holiday house, this happens a lot, in an area where there is a real struggle to house local people. now, these people spoil it for the rest of the good decent english people who come here, live as we do, do as we do, work as we do. have children in the schools, there are some very decent members of the community here that are english, and they are very welcome to be here. and like i said the other arseholes spoil it for the decent english folk. however people in scotland who might have never been away from their local community dont see the hard working young families from england that live here because for so long it has just been property developers and toffs, christ dont even get me started on them, the ‘raa raas and the yaa yaas’. that all aside if we were independent we could have laws in place to stop the selling of crofts and croft houses and farmland to greedy eyed investment bankers from the south so they can come and stay a fortnight once a year in their quaint little croft house by the ‘lock’. and never mind the communities that are still being destroyed by this up and down the country. my next point is i never said ‘england rules us’ i said ruled ‘from’ england, the south, a wee place called london i think. it would actually of made sense to run ‘britain’ from edinburgh as its the most centralized bit! i dont know why you find it so hard to understand. it must be the same where all the brits move to spain and take over their communities. no shame some folk…. as a matter of fact ive seen this happen in england in places like somerset, the rich pricks from the city buy small farms and houses and commute every day or every week to london, this destroys communities down there too, and the land is no longer being farmed. it will become a different story in 2025 when we will have to grow veg on the roadsides to feed everyone. to put it in perspective you’d need to imagine if it was the other way round, imagine if westminster was in THURSO, theyd make sure they kept everyone happy up here wouldnt they? or would they say, ‘hang on a minute maybe we should do something for those people way down south 508 miles away?’ then ‘nah fcuk them who cares’. i urge everyone who reads this to find a copy of ‘THE CHEVIOT THE STAG AND THE BLACK BLACK OIL’ it was a film made in the 70’s but the first and only time its been shown by the bbc was about 4 months ago. very well done and tells you all the story you all want to know.
        in reply to DAVE, IF THE ORKNEY OR SHETLAND islanders wanted to stay part of the uk then let them do so. you all think all we want is our oil, but its much more complicated than that, you should get that chip of yer shoulder and open your eyes to the reality of the situation rather than moaning about it. and tell me how northern ireland is a concern for us? they’re our cousins you idiot. AND they are still part of the uk. basically everything you said is wrong. and why would it be a massive disappointment if we didnt get independence for you? i can tell you straight, right now, if scotland became independent from the UK. you’d all be completely screwed unless you kept up good relations with us, which you should do. if you have an ounce of sense just keep quiet and see what happens because your not doing yourselves any favors by panicking and getting shirty at the prospect of scotland leaving the uk. if you dont think it will effect you then you can live happily ever after why do you even care? i will agree with you on one point though, yep, we are shit at football. that was both accurate and true, unlike everything else you said. but i have to say, it seems a bit petty, ‘your crap at football’ …… ‘your mums fat’…….. is that the best you can do

  19. dave says:

    #### TO JAMES S ####

    Just so you are aware Scotland would have the same per capita debt as England, as the current UK debt would be divided up on a per capita basis, so what on earth are you talking about.

    England would not have the 2nd highest per capita debt level in the world that is just a complete lie and if it was true then we would be equal second for the reason above, so again what on earth are talking about?

    The majority of figures state total oil and gas revenue no even at best the most patriotic and ardent scot states that the Scottish pay in what they get back or make a slight surplus but this based on ALL the revenues which you do not own.

    So let’s assume the Scots have the balls to go through with it and vote for independence which they won’t to the massive disappoint of the English public.

    Then we would no longer send the so called subsidise back to Scotland as you would no longer contribute; however, the UK now gets to keep its 10% of those revenues and MOST of the gas revenues which would now be spent in the rest of the UK, it would also go a lot further as 5m people have just left that union.

    Do you understand this?

    Also what happens to Scotland if the Orkney’s or Shetland decides to stay in the UK or go independent their selves you can not stop this as:

    A: you cant legally
    B: It would make you hypocrites

    That leaves another massive gap in the maths.

    Also how much of the GDP / Tax figures are based on Jobs that would be pulled back to the UK.

    Also do you really believe the UK will let you walk away without continuing to pay your share of the funding for N Ireland they are more a concern for Scotland than England or Wales, this has not been factored in either.

    We want you to go, we will keep the overseas territories and if Shetland and Orkney decide to stay with the UK they can, they hate Edinburgh more than they hate London.

    Stop getting angry you are getting what you want, Stop lying you are getting what you want, stop blaming the English Public you are getting what you want.

    Please all of you vote on this to start total independence for us all.

    P.S you are rubbish at football and will never qualify for another tournament ever, ho, ho, ho, LOL.

    • THATS WHY THE EPL IS JUST ABOUT FILLED WITH SCOTTISH MANAGERS WINNING THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE AND FA CUP LOADS OF TIMES AT MAN U ECK FERGUSON, THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN ENGLISH MANAGER THAT HAS NOT WON THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FOR DECADES IF THERE HAS BEEN SUCH A MANGER FROM ENGLAND TO WIN ANY CUP, SCOTTISH MANAGERS SOUTH OF BORDER ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN ENGLISH MANAGERS WHY IS THAT DAVY BOY EH!!!!!

      • Dave says:

        Really how interesting KOF so you watch the premier league and the Scottish Managers to comfort you through the fact the Scottish premier league is so BORING and because scotalnd cant qualify for anything.

        We can keep exporting it to Scotland after you leave the union for a small fee of course LOL.

  20. dave says:

    #### TO JAMES S ###

    You seem to have gone a bit quiet the truth hit home has it? And that Scotland suck at football HA, LOL, HO, HO, HE, HE.

    Please tell all your friends English Dave said to vote for independence.

    • dave says:

      ## TO L.BAIRD ##

      The football jibe is banter, I like the fact it annoyed you because everything you said in your response was basically rhetoric bullshit, I don’t know if your mom is fat, in fact i don’t care as i never mentioned anyone’s mom not even your mom who apparently is fat! One thing i do know, if the Scottish leave the union it will half the heart attack rate for the rest of the UK.

      In fact everything in your reply states nothing that i have said i have mentioned a few times that you can take all the oil and gas who gives a FUCK it accounts for a tiny amount of our economy yet you state that ‘I’ or the English public think that that’s what its all about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      We want you to go, please go, I implore you and all the brave Scottish people to vote for this, as it is only the brave Scottish people that will vote for it, unforgivably the lazy weak minded cowards among your people will vote to stay to sacred of change and they will be the same people who will be moaning about the English for eternity they will even lie to you and tell you they voted for Independence and there are more of them than there are of you so You will end up staying in the union to the disappointment of the majority of the people of this union.

      • Tom says:

        Couldn’t agree more sick to death with their constant moaning the sooner the Scots go the better, but please they should go with no bloody strings attached.In or out preferably the latter ASAP.

  21. dave says:

    Yes i think it would be for the best if all the nations were fully independent.

  22. dave says:

    The Only problem is the majority of the Scottish public will be too SCARED to vote for independence, yes i said too SCARED, when push comes to shove the Majority will vote to hide behind the coat tails of the English, only from that point on WE the ENGLISH public can always point out to how they voted and dismiss the complaints as you would dismiss a child who moans when you say no to giving them some sweets.

    Please there must still be enough Brave Scottish people out there to start the march too independence for us all.

    VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE.

  23. S. Nicol says:

    this is the usual uneducated stupid rubbish I expect from anti independence people who do not do any research. opinion polls over the last three decades are climbing up now probably well over 50% and would go to 75% if the real treasury figures were published! england depends on scottish oil revenue, whisky revenue etc.

    • Aljo says:

      I am trying to discover the facts on the whole matter.
      What sources are you using for your figures?
      There are “facts and figures” being used by both sides but seldom are any sources quoted.
      We need verified facts to make a decision. Some say England depends on Scotlands oil revenues, others that on balance they make little difference. What is the truth?

      • The links are within the post. Follow those.

      • sneditionsS. Nicol says:

        tHE SOURCES which are vital is treasury figures. I have one contact who has studied recent figures and on his initial number crunching puts Scotland as putting more revenue to england than they get back for goodness sake even the parking fines go south!!! the Barnet formula which is rolled out each time on this one as a scare tactic is far from generous in a day well before Oil. Look at the levels of Perroleum revenue tax, then look at the tax at the petrol pump nearly 80% of the price! then corporate tax on any profits left and not tomention the income from oil at nearly $100 a barrel! If you look at englands income or industry, Cars in the doldrums, Coal mining maggie ruined and destroyed now we import from Poland JHapan!! I guess you need to really investigate these figures. The financial industries which broke the bank in the square mile in London much of the profits going West!! I rest my case on this so far till I have more concrete data.

    • yesbmf730429 says:

      England does not depend on Scottish oil or Whisky Revenue where did you get such rubbish from? Also please note most of the oil that the Scottish will definitely rely on is not all yours! In fact most of it belongs to Orkney and Shetland and believe it or not 10% actually belongs to England!

      Please understand this the ENGLISH public want our own Independence.

      Can i ask you a serious question? Do you think a fully independent England, from Wales Scotland and NI would be worse off financially?

      Of course we wouldn’t Scotland pay in what they roughly get back in subsidise there could be swing either way but it is very marginal that it makes no difference we’re not talking pots of gold here.

      In fact Scotland have a responsibility to NI and Wales too why do the Scottish always just look at it from that the scottish create money from oil then England give it back some of that money helps subsidise the other two nations.

      Your Economy will be totally dependent on a dwindling resource so you are very wrong to to say England depend on oil and Whiskey revenue as we don’t it would be the scottish economy that would.

      VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE.

      • sneditions says:

        Firstly you are wholly wrong. What industries does England alone have?Before you are rude check your figures Orkney is part of scotland incase you are ignorant of the fact so does Shetland. Most of North sea oil is in the Northeast areas although some new finds in the west of shetland basin again scottish area , is now being discovered. Scotland pays in far in excess of what it receives that is a fact based on recent Treasury figures! I also only gave oil and whisky income as an example there are others such as natural gas which is going to be more important in the future too. Secondly whisky in scotland does not have an e that is Irish Whiskey! Scotland does not include that income. England would be worse off if wales NI and Scotland were totally independent. Just look at Norway their oil has been carefully used to build a special fund for the future of 2trillion krone! yes I said trillion. Now as to the demise of oil the industry is global and earns money from its expertise in other areas of the world I know ten people from my school who work in all corners of the globe for Scottish Oil companies they pay scottish tax and their companies pay tax too. so do some homework before you say anything is RUBBISH YOU only swap your ignorance!

    • Dave says:

      No they don’t.

  24. james s says:

    Aljo, I spent a year researching this issue after the election landslide of the SNP.. Indeed I still occasionally visit sites like this to ensure I’m getting the full breadth of opinion.

    Be aware though, that following Robert’s links will only take you to articles and data that supports his extreme position. There is as much if not more accessible data out there that contradicts his position but of course you won’t find any links to that on here.

    Newsnet, Bella Caledonia, ScottishTimes have numerous links to useful articles and data on these matters so I’d probably start there.

    After a year of research I have no doubt we’d ALL be better off without Westminster’s stifling control. On balance it’s clear Scotland does more than pay its way in the UK, but not by much. It certainly has the resources to succeed on its own which shouldn’t seriously undermine the prospects of the former UK.

    I don’t think of the Irish as foreigners and I certainly won’t view the English or Welsh as foreigners post-UK either. We’d just be able to do our own thing without the greed fueled doctrines of Westminster.

    • sneditions says:

      i am a professional journalist and base my information not on biased opinions my sources are also very accurate. I have contacts throughout the Oil industry and in OPEC and in various places which do number crunching. So let us see what comes out of the treasury, not the massaged figures with political spin but the raw data. Under freedom of information much more is clear than before MY somewhat amateur guess is we are at least hundreds of millions better off and with the coming difficulties in energy the price of oil is set to increase and let me remind you there is also gold in them thar hills of Scotland and at over $1000 an once would be well worth the investment I.m sure. What i think is that England has a more difficult identity to forge than the Scots. Yorkshire is distinct from the south wars of the roses etc., and Cornwall and Devon too have differences of views the Church of England recognizes this in they have the Archbishop of Canterbury and Archbishop of York the former being primate of all England recognizing the existence of York’s power but putting it in hierarchical style. I believe we would all benefit from strong sovereign countries who co operated rather than westminster domination which is London Centric anyway

      • Dave says:

        You are not a professional journalist you can barely write i’m guessing you are 12 and half!

        You ask what industries England have you should be more concerned about what UK industries would be moved to BACK to England if you vote for Independence ship building for one you will be bale to use you ‘journalistic’ skills to dig up some more.

        The much talked about kicking out the nuclear deterrent would also have a massive effect for that area look into more of these.

        You said before i am rude i have not been rude to anyone only the Scottish posters have come on this site and been rude or try be patronising, like your (insert your whining voice) “our whisky is spelled without an E as that would be Irish whiskey”

        Really you are trying to call me up on spelling!!!!!!

        You also stated that Shetland and Orkney are part of Scotland!!! OK so like i said before the Scottish would then become ‘Colonial empire building fcks’ like your people try and portray the English!!! If Orkney and Shetland vote for independence they become countries in there own right so they would not be part of scotland!!!

        Why on earth anyone in scotland would think England still pine for the ’empire’ is beyond me, looks to me as though the scottish aspire to having there own empire if as you state those islands BELONG to scotland.

        You are the one who is ignorant not me and again you show your age child no run along little boy and check your homework especially your child like maths as it is flawed.

        England is also scotland’s largest trading partner……………!!!

        PLEASE VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE THE ENGLISH IMPLORE YOU.

      • sneditions says:

        Your insulting reply is ridiculous and i will not bother to counter such ignorance!

      • Dave says:

        Why because you are a child who does not like truth or insults being thrown back at him or because you are so stupidly wrong it is embarrassing.

        Journalist my arse!!!

        Ignorance please point it out if you can, nothing i have posted is anything but the truth.

        I want you to vote for Independence please do this for me will you if you are 16 by 2014.

  25. james s says:

    I find it quite pathetic when English posters on here keep bringing up Orkney and Shetland in this issue. It’s like us Scots claiming your economy would be bankrupt without London. London is part of England and those islands are part of Scotland. There is no issue here.

    Secondly, even if somehow those islands opted to remain in FUK (Former UK) or indeed opted to rejoin Norway or whatever ridiculous scenario you can come up with, they legally have absolutely no entitlement to any tax raised from any oil well in the North Sea as there are no wells within what would be their economic zone. ALL are sited within Scottish territorial waters defined by the Law of the Sea.

    It’s an extremely childish argument frankly.

    The discussion above about who pays what into the UK again is rather silly. The actual kite-marked ONS figures show Scotland in surplus to the rest of the UK year on year when all its income is taken into account. The “economic basket case” myth was propagated to deny the independence movement oxygen but the annual GERS figures, which were originally conceived to confirm this myth, have progressed to kite-marked status through the rigour of public glare. With ALL its income taken into account, Scotland more than pays its way but not by much. Scotland will be fine on its own but the FUK shouldn’t feel too much pain afterwards as Scotland’s income is only a relatively small part of current UK income.

    The dwindling oil resource argument falls flat on its face when you consider renewable energy will be THE most vital resource over the next 100 years (outwith food and water) as oil runs out. We’re nowhere near being able to recreate the temperatures and pressures that exist within a star so nuclear fusion is a long way off. The production of energy will replace the production of oil over time and Scotland frankly has an embarrassing abundance of potential capacity in this regard. Scotland is known as the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy for a reason. We represent less than 1% of the EU’s population yet have access to 25% of it’s entire potential tidal power (arguably the most important as it never runs out) and 10% of its wind power. Hydrocarbon derived energy will have to be replaced and the economies of the EU will come calling, including FUK. The FUKers will need their energy from somewhere and nuclear seems to be a sticky wicket.

    • Dave says:

      James why do you find it pathetic when English posters mention Orkney or Shetland it is a debate, it is the inhabitants of those islands that are making the noise.

      You are also wrong, if the islanders vote to stay in UK then the oil would remain in Uk waters be very clear on this,

      The law of the sea only only sees the oil off the islands shaws as Sottish, as the islands are claimed as scottish territory, if they vote to stay in the UK or to become independent they are no longer scottish territory so the oil would no longer be in in scottish waters!!

      I agree both economies would not be hurt and could thrive separately in fact not much would change after all the dust had settled you would not even notice it happened especially the further south or north you were, unless the above scenario took place then Scotland would have to adjust to accommodate this.

      As for the renewable energy you talk of who are you going to sell it to the rest of the UK has ample renewable energy itself and it will prove difficult to sell wind energy great distances.

      Tidal power is yet to to take off but would offer a more reliable source of energy once the next wave (excuse the pun) trials have been completed.

      England, Wales and NI all have plenty of energy with plenty of offshore wind farm projects completed, under construction or with planning consent.

      Nuclear power will still be a part of the mix for a long time sticky wicket or not.

      Being childish is making up new terms like FUKers, mentioning facts are not..

      • do some homework thick davy as your obviously lacking in knowledge about scottish independence,

        ENJOY LIVING OFF THE SCOTS DAVY BOY WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE FACT THAT THE SCOTS ARE KEEPING YOU AND YOUR ILK ALIVE. BETTER MAKE GOOD USE OF IT NOW!!!!

      • Dave says:

        ## TO KINGDOM OF FIFE ##

        KOF you tool, I WANT SCOTLAND to vote for and gain independence, so I have no idea what your comment below is about. I can only assume you cant read you buffoon.

        I’m lacking in knowledge about SCOTTISH independence what on earth are talking about I WANT YOU TO GET IT and GO you tool, what knowledge am I lacking??

        JESUS CHRIST you are stupid!!!!

        Pleas vote for independence if you’re 16 by then, Thanks.

  26. james s says:

    Dave, you wrote:

    “The law of the sea only only sees the oil off the islands shaws as Sottish, as the islands are claimed as scottish territory, if they vote to stay in the UK or to become independent they are no longer scottish territory so the oil would no longer be in in scottish waters!!”

    It is clear from the content and nature of your reply that you have very limited knowledge of this subject and are only weakly versed in the tabloid and media brainwashing that is being set upon not only the Scots but now the English too. You had a previous rant in another thread that I chose to ignore as it was so basic and wrong I knew there’d be little point in dialogue with you if what I’d say was not exactly what you wanted to hear. However, here are some very basic points to note:

    Only two countries signed the Act of Union: Scotland and England (Wales and Ireland were parts of England as the Norman’s had invaded them after they had conquered the English – long story).

    The Northern Isles were part of Scotland at the time of the Act being signed ( NEVER having been part of England). If the Scots vote to repeal the Act of Union, ending the UK, Scotland and England separate and return to their pre-existing status. The oil will be in Scottish territory (well, most of it).

    For the Northern Isles to remain in the “UK”, which will no longer exist, they would have to have a second referendum seeking to become independent of Scotland then a third seeking to join “FUK” (Former UK), whatever that new state turns out to be. The FUKers would then presumably have to have a referendum to allow them into FUK (assuming they even get past the English nationalists who may not want to create a new state that has Wales and N.Ireland in it when everything is up in the air).

    Even if, after all that, the Shetlands and Orkneys voted to join the FUKers in their new state, the oil around these islands would be subject to the Law of the Sea which is quite clear in these matters. Indeed, the precedent for the law relating to islands involved the UK itself in the argument with the French over the economic rights of the Channel Islands which lie within the French EEZ in the English channel. Here the law is quite clear. It states that islands administered by a foreign state lying within the EEZ of a different state will have an “enclave” within that EEZ extending 12 nautical miles from the islands’ shore.

    There are no existing oil fields within any potential Orkney or Shetland enclaves. Therefore, the argument about the Orkneys and Shetlands is a non-argument, designed to instill fear into those who’d potentially vote for Scottish independence and this nonsense has been picked up by a hapless media with an editorial directive to stop Scottish independence at all costs. The fact people like you swallow this stuff hook, line and sinker and then repeat it without checking for yourself is quite amusing.

    Your contention about renewable energy is frankly laughable and confirms to me that you are simply plucking things out of thin air.

    Although England is slightly larger than Scotland in area, it has only half the coastline. The EEZ or economic zone it would administer is tiny in comparison to Scotland’s. If you look at the shape of Scotland’s coastline you will see why, with it’s many “tentacles” extending into the Atlantic. You’ll also see why Scotland has the envious position of being a potential energy goldmine with its hundreds of inlets, sea lochs with Atlantic tides and currents to fuel the grid . It also benefits from winds which in some areas have proved the highest sustained winds in the world.

    Even with this disadvantage, England with its area could potentially generate significant renewable power. The problem she has is that she has ten times the population. England will always be dependent on other nations for its power simply due to the fact it is ridiculously overcrowded. It is likely she’ll import power from numerous sources, including Scotland although the whole of Europe will have to become far more interlinked in power-sharing as we move away from fossil fuels. In any event, Scotland’s vast potential surplus will be harvested and used by other countries just like her oil is today. This is why the endless fear-mongering you hear in the media is laughable.

    If Scotland becomes independent, she’ll be able to ensure the wealth her surpluses generate will not be squandered on the disaster of the south like her oil surplus has for the past 40 years. It would be nice for some of our own wealth to be spent on our own people for a change and not into the hands of a so-called elite in the South-East who are hardly likely to consider the needs of the Scots when they are happily watching the rest of England wither on the vine which is a disgrace no matter where you come from.

    One final question:

    Why are the English only concerned with the interests and rights of those particular small Scottish islands and not all the other islands we have, of which there are hundreds?

    The obvious answer to that question does not put you in a very favourable light.

    • Dave says:

      You are wrong and your almost child like attempts at being a typical patronising Scot are very amusing and you show little knowledge of any law. Wait until you have to negotiate for YOUR oil.

      I don’t care as stated many times take all of the oil and gas! so how does that not ‘put me in a very favorable light’? i have said you can take all of the oil ,in fact i don’t think many if any English posters have posted you cant take your precious oil, so what on earth are you arguing about we agree with you please go and take your share of oil with you and debt etc as long as it is fair for both parties, we dont care.

      I’m just putting points out there if England was given the choice today to be independent of Scotland, Wales and NI and lose a bit of oil and Gas we would snap your hand off.

      UNDERSTAND THIS PLEASE ENGLAND would be better off in every way INCLUDING financially if we were Independent from ALL the UK nations.

      Its not racist, its not being clever, we JUST WANT what YOU want.

      DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS???????

      Also your very lame explanation of your very Childish FUKers comments just show how pathetic and bitter the Scots actually are, little baby!

      PLEASE vote for Independence i implore you.

    • Dave says:

      ### to james S ##

      Also i have clearly stated what if Orkney and Shetland VOTE for their OWN interdependence they would then own the resources in their seas unless the Scottish decide to become:

      HYPOCRITES!

      So basically your unnecessarily long post explaining something to just suit YOUR point was pointless, and i mock you.

      So again what on earth are you talking about.

      I’m just putting out points of view in answer to questions or stupidity being posted, i want you to vote for Independence please do this for me.

    • mark scott says:

      you simply forget bto mention that if Scotland goes independent and joins the eu (questionable) and the inexperienced government gets everything bang on (questionable) and you can use all of the uk assets like passport offices, dvla, (seriously questionable) and can use the british pound (highly unlikely) etc etc as to not incur any costs on your society don’t you think that Scotland may become the new place to be so all of the immigrants will head strait there instead of England giving your workplace and population a major problem, you may feel a bit pissed about having to pay for foreigner’s that do not help your economy in any way. unlike us English who are used to it as we have had to give our jobs up to the influx of home nations over the last 100 years or more and more recently to eu members, oh and did I forget to mention that if you get all that you want (doubtful) I as an Englishman can just move north of the border to receive the benefits that any scot will . afraid of the yes vote, not really in fact I don’t give a fuck, you really havn’t thought the argument through that well

  27. Rose says:

    I’m for the UK staying together. I’m British. I’ve got equal amounts of Scottish and English family and ancestors, I cannot in good concience choose a side. But what strikes me about most of these comments, is that both sides are clearly very bitter toward each other, and those that speak seem to think they speak for the entirety of each nation. What of those of us who would feel no longer at home if the UK seperated? One can’t feel entirely at home in Scotland, when I would probably be labeled as an anti-scottish bint for not wishing Scotland had it’s independence, and (going on past experience here) I would feel just as uncomfortable in England, just because I was born in Scotland and speak with an Edinburgh accent, it may make me a target of hatred and scorn. Just because I’m Scottish, doesn’t mean I hate England, quite the opposite! We’re not scared as someone put it, we just don’t want Britain to be broken up. We love it the way it is. What is so wrong with that? So what is a girl like me to do, when the country she loved, hates her either way no matter what side of the border she’s on? Spare a thought for those of us on both sides. We’re not a “Nasty race” at all, we’re just like you, human, passionate about our country and perhaps a little prideful too. Being Scottish doesn’t make you repulsive and second/third class, and being English doesn’t make you an arrogant git, only worthy of contempt and reproach. Good God, we were fine until Mel Gibson came along with that movie! This whole independence nonsense is just getting silly. Salmond (Hate the guy, he makes my stomach knot up) does NOT speak for us all.

    • Dave says:

      No one will hate you anymore or any less! If anyone could read the whole thread the bitter comments in the main come form Scottish posters, in general the English posters are in agreement that Scotland should VOTE for Independence; however, somehow that gets interpreted that we are running scared that you will take your oil and gas!!!

      And that England Sucks and England own and run you, the English are racist, yes apparently the English are more racist than the never racist Scots, we once did horrible things 200 years ago and we are all still the same in 2012 yada, yada, yada.

      Please vote for your new union with Europe, you couldn’t make it up, you would not even be voting for Independence you would be voting to swap who you are in union with.

    • Rose you don’t “love it the way it is” You love your life the way it is. That is not the same thing.

      How can you love a country that builds aircraft carriers which by definition are used to carry conflict to the doorsteps of other (always) smaller countries?

      How can you love a country that wants to throw £100 Billion into nuclear weapons when there are pensioners living in fuel poverty, the NHS is on it’s knees and 1000’s of families are taking out payday loans?

      How can you love a country that has one of the lowest old age pensions in the developed world while they have taken £100’s of Billions in oil out of the North Sea.
      How can you love a country that has one of the highest child poverty % rates in Europe?

      I could go on and mention corruption, lack of response to flooding, allowing their citizens to be spied on by the USA, fighting illegal wars which culminated in 100’s of thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed and mutilated and even more now that we have given taken their oil and given up on them.

      This referendum is about far more than you. It is about a nation that thinks it is being governed unfairly and have the means at their disposal to do something about it. Granted independence will not be a bed of roses, it will be no Nirvana by any means but it will be something we, the people will be in control of.

      I know many English people who are voting YES for all the reasons and more that I have listed above. They will not be victimised because we will all be fighting for the same thing.

      I don’t know what life for you will be like in England, there are 1000’s of Scots still helping to run businesses in England and will do after YES. I see no backlash against Scots down there other than from the kind of idiots you find in any country (including Scotland, this page is an example)
      Unfortunately unlike Scotland the English have been subjected to a media campaign by the press to encourage a malevolence against Scots. Have no fear that same press will redirect their hatred towards rUK’s Government (the real villains in all this) when Scotland is no longer fuel for their garbage and venom.

  28. Rose says:

    What I’m saying is that neither side are right. The scottish posters are fired up and ranting just as much as the English posters are. The Scots, as always are being prideful, and pride comes before a fall as the saying goes…so we must be careful with reacting out of anger and hurt. The English are scoffing, snarling and sneering and begging us to go, but I wonder if they truly know just what it will be like when we’re gone (the old addage, you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone springs to one’s mind). How does England know what will happen once Scotland leaves? You might find your idealistic ideas were severely misplaced when the reality hits it. You might hate Scotand now, if nothing else, just for the way we are, but we have every reason to feel the same about England…lets face the truth here…neither country has been decent about this…it’s all back biting and revenge. It’s immature and it needs to stop! We’re not children in a playground…the future of our (united) country hangs in a very delicate balance and this is a very serious situation of which the outcome will affect us both…what is needed is a level minded approach, free from the schoolyard bickering that is constantly threatening to tip the balance in what could potentially be a disasterous direction. And what of Wales? What has Wales to say? Has anyone even considered them? For God’s sake, stop the petty jealous fighting and do what’s actually best for the country as a whole with the right heart instead of one poisoned by bitterness and grudges. Where’s the humanity in all of this? A house divided cannot stand as Abraham Lincoln once and very wisely said.

    • Aljo says:

      Probably the most sensible comment so far, also one that is nearer to the feelings of much of the population of both countries, than the extreme views from both sides..

    • Dave says:

      English posters are not ranting, some may have reacted to blatant racism from the scottish but nothing more.

      The English are not scoffing, snarling or sneering we want our Independence also, why is it when the English want their Independence we are scoffing, snarling or sneering, when the scottish want there Independence it is for pride, you couldn’t make it up!!!

      ENGLAND don’t hate you, the English PEOPLE don’t hate you, it is the sCOTTISH that are full of hate, in general the majority of the English are indifferent to you we don’t care most of the population of England are as close to scotland as they are to mainland europe.

      Its not even a big issue in England a lot are not even aware the referendum is going to take place and those that are want you to vote for Independence.

      READ EVERY POST ON THIS THREAD AND OTHER SUCH AS ‘THE TRUTH ABOUT UK OIL AND GAS’

      And the only hatred and petty school child posts are from the scottish.

      The English agree with you and that you should be independent and take what is rightfully yours and some how this makes us the bad guys.

      You were in union that suited your countries needs at the time now you want to leave what did England do to Scotland apart form agree to your demands!!!!

      You mention Wales but not Northern Ireland!

      The scots only want Independence as the think it would be financially better for them, The English also feel the same but from all nations, including Europe, who the Scots will enter a union with, a far inferior and less influential member of the union they already in!!!

      We just want what you want why does that make the English bad.

      PLEASE VOTE FOR SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE WE IMPLORE YOU.

    • We were never a house divided Rose we were 2 House joined and unfortunately that has gradually taken on the coat of one house enveloping the other and treating it like a “region”
      Scotland is not Yorkshire and it is not Wales or NI (we were never conquered, we were conned by our own landed gentry) It was these landed gentry who were so afraid of being poor they sold out their country and their countrymen. Scotland would have recovered from Darien, all countries recover from disasters but the gentry took the easy way out.
      We should have been treated as equals in this Union but we were not. No country gives up its sovereignty voluntarily to be treated as a region of another.
      The people of England have never appreciated that, they actually think we should be treated like Yorkshire or NI either through poor history education or the printed lies of the media.

  29. Rose says:

    You are just proving my point! You are assuming Scotland in its entirety wants independence based on the comments here and assumptions. I’m trying to let you know that the loud ones (usually the ones squawking in the forums) don’t speak for every scot in the country! There are those of us who think its a bad idea and those are typically the ones who want what is best for both countries, regardless of how they feel personally about England and Im sure the same can be said for England too, we need to take into account what this nation as a whole wants, not just think that just because a few spout off about how they would love it if we went our separate ways, that must mean the rest of the country feels the same way.
    All I’m saying at its most basic, is that we will both need to drop the hate on. Both sides and do what is best for both nations. Xx

    • Harry says:

      Rose your right!! I’m English, I don’t want the union broken up, its given us peace on mainland Britain for over 300 years, that’s what everyone is overlooking and good trading. Make no mistake tho if the majority of Scots vote for divorce / separation it will become messy as they normally do, and there’s a few nations that will refuse Scotland access to the EU because of fears for minority cultures in their own countries want to leave them too. So better together…………………..better the devil you know. Come Scotland stick with the old enemy and ally, after all there’s more that 15 million English of Scottish decent !

  30. Dave says:

    I’m not at all, read the whole thread as requested please before making assumptions about me, I have stated many times on this thread that the scottish voters will not vote for Independence!

    You say there some that think it is a bad idea and that those are ‘typically the ones who want what is best for both countries’, thats a bit patronising to your fellow scots who want Independence.

    You want to stay in a union others don’t, why try and make out you are right to have your view! im sure those that want Independence feel it is best for both countries also Xx.

  31. Rose says:

    And that is all fine…it’s the collective result that matters. Individual voices that make up one big voice, and it’s the big voice that will be the deciding factor, whatever the decision, the rest who didn’t get what they voted for will just have to be graceful enough to make the best of what is to come. Do forgive me, I did not intend to sound patronising or anything of the sort, and if I did, then I offer my most humble apologies to you. It just seems to me, having read every post on this thread, that the hate is not all on the scottish side as you said. As the saying goes, There are three sides to every story, there’s our side, the other side and then there’s the truth. Perception is everything in matters like these. Wishing you the very best of 2013. xx

  32. Dave says:

    I didn’t find you patronising, i said you were patronising to your fellow scots who want Independence, as your view is that those that don’t are the ones that want what is best for both countries.

    I did not say all the hate i said MOST the hate and vile comes from scottish posters even when us very bad English folk agree with you! I can even tell you agree!

    Hopefully all those well educated 16 year olds will swing the vote FOR Independence, then you can be rid of us horrible, nasty English dictators once and for all.

    You might not want it but most of England do be thankful you get to choose.

  33. RForbes says:

    i think london should become independent. i hate how we fund the rest of the country and their unrealistic, non-sustainable expectations from government.

    • RForbes says:

      there is not one statement on this page that is free from bias.

    • S. says:

      ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! TREASURY FIGURES SHOW THE WHOLE COST OF TRIDENT IS BOURNE BY SCOTTISH BUDGET NOT TO MENTION THE OIL INDUSTRY.

      • It is rather pointless asserting things without providing evidence.

      • RForbes says:

        this whole page is pointless. i can go find evidence to support any argument i want, from validation of Scottish claims about oil and gas to the exact opposite. Throwing insults in either direction just indicates a lack of composure.

    • Unfortunately, you don’t make anything. You thrive on a casino approach to wealth and the London financial centre is one crash away from doom. I’m not saying this to frighten you but because I feel the UK used to be a powerhouse of industry and now we pay to import nearly everything.

      London has sucked away much of the resources which could have fuelled a strong industrial economy like Germany. Instead the rest of us are basically, a gradually degrading body that the the London parasite economy feeds off. It can’t be sustained. Oil and gas has kept it going (along with other parts of the UK) but it can’t go on forever.

      Thatcher and subsequent governments have bought into a dream that turned into a nightmare once and we are all suffering to pay for the mistakes. If it happens again, as it no doubt will, there are no more reserves to bail them out. The people are on their knees.

      Instead of turning your hatred on Scotland you should be rebelling against how the rest of the UK is being raped to keep London afloat and in prosperity.

  34. Where are your facts for the bias on oil ?
    At last here is a document PREVENTED FROM PUBLICATION at the time on the analysis of oil and how it could be used. http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf
    This is only availbel now after being suppressed for 30 years.
    ALSO, compare the oil revenue (extraction rate) during Maggie’s “growth years” . The government of the day raped the oil fields at an unsustainable level to fund her mania 😦

    • It is all buts and maybes. The main thing which stands out from the analysis is that there is a strong expectation that the Scots left to themselves would mess up whatever the advantages they started with.

    • mark scott says:

      I get fed up of hearing all this our oil our oil shit, try to remember the oil was discovered at a time when you had been part of the united kingdom for nearly 300 years so it being united kingdom oil of which the united kingdom benefits just like it would if it was found off the coast of wales, cornwall, Ireland or even bogna regis. do you not feel a bit of a capitalist now wanting it all to yourselves for a better future for yourselves, anyway you will never get away from the fact that it was uk investment and uk negotiations on boundrys that set everything up as it is today so you would be foolish to believe that the uk would get none of the spoils

  35. THE ENGLISH CAN’T QUITE GRASP THE FACT THAT SCOTLAND HAS KEPT THE WHOLE COUNTRY AFLOAT FOR THE FORTY YEARS OR MORE

  36. david owen says:

    as some one who has just came across this website very valid comments from all parties but as a scotsman i will be voting independance because i want my people to run our own country not by a bunch off scum tory,labour,or wanker liberal democrat wankers who only care for london and the south east of england rich bastards,its always london,london,london i hear on the english broadcasting corporation ,im not anti english but lot of english people have lost their way blinded by the westminister cunts all of them corrupt, .scotland has its own language ,heritage,history and regarding people leaving scotland years ago they want a free scotland and thats what will happen,we get crumbs off a english loaf bread like wales and northern ireland ,well guess what no fucking more shit from londonshire cunts ,the united kunt kingdom is finished and i want no more of it ,alba for ever,as for oil england does not have that many bits of coast that contains reserves or gas as stated ,what you should do is link a pipeline from the house of liars and coffin dodging bastards for all the gas that comes out of westminister and you will have enough gas to keep england warm for ever and transport that can run on methane gas for the amount of shit that comes from the cunts mouths ,so in a nut shell i have solved englands fuel shortages and we in scotland will keep the good stuff,so the better together campaign shove the united kingdom of shit or londonshire up your arses ,i can maybe help you get your balance of payments down start a paki breeding programme oops already in place because your cities are full of the muslim cunts and their cunt prophet or profit aye a fuckin cunt if your a muslim reading this ,export the bastards to londonshire and see what the rich cunts have got on their doorstep or essex,i have english family ,welsh &irish .goodbye westminister cunts tory scum no more, so to to the decent folk in england and most of you are good people wake up to the lies of the rich ,corrupt ,scum of westminister as the people of jockland did years ago and no we are not affraid of going it alone we are gods country and fear nothing if failure comes so be it ,better to live in the light of truth than the lies and deceit of westminister . written by mad glasgow dave

  37. Sensible says:

    Just found this little Englander site. The writer – without cutting too fine a point is a moron and probably some form of bump supporter. Scotland will be independent and will fly – I truly hope England does too.

  38. I have read down most of the replies and as a Scot voting YES, I must say I am very disappointed with many of the posts on both sides.
    Why are so many of our English cousins so bitter about a country that used to be independent wanting to go back to independence again?
    Why are so many Scots on here so arrogant about any difficulties, Scotland’s leaving the Union will cause rUK?
    The BT side go on and on about kinship but it seems to me we are already reverting to the days of “Proud Edward’s Army”
    If Scotland gains independence surely the best way forward for both of us is co-operation to our mutual benefit.
    Can the people South of the border not respect that if the vote is YES it is nothing personal, it is a way to try and right some of the neglect we feel in the Union. This neglect is NOT something only we are suffering, it is being suffered throughout the UK but we see this referendum as a way of controlling what is happening.
    I have English ancestry and many of my extended family are English. I am not going to want an independent Scotland to do anything that harms them and they feel the same way.

    The English people imo are being used here and much of it is being fuelled by the media. The media, in line with Westminster announcements firstly wanted to have the people of England feel we were subsidised, now that we are prepared to go it alone the media now makes out we are taking something away from rUK. They can’t have it both ways.

    Let us stop all the bickering and back stabbing. Let the People of Scotland decide their own fate without all the threats and talk of reprisals if we choose YES. I am not aware of any of this when Ireland or New Zealand chose independence. Let us in Scotland stop acting like we going to revel in any rUK hardship, we will both need each other, that much is obvious. The bad feelings expressed above will all have to be patched up and it will be us, the ordinary people who will have to do it, not the media, who pedal this hatred to sell newspapers or the politicians who don’t give a damn about the citizens as long as their snout is in the trough.

    I sincerely hope that if Scotland becomes independent and if we try to refocus on the citizens of this great country that it will provide rUK/England’s people with a template to make similar changes and rout out the freeloaders that have flourished and enriched themselves as a result of Westminster policies and on the backs of the People.

  39. teddysue says:

    The crooked nature of Westminster is shown here:

    If there is a YES vote these wrongs will be addressed.

  40. Pingback: All you could ever want to know about Scottish independence | England calling

  41. mark scott says:

    seems to me that the Scottish people over the past 300 years have enjoyed the benefits of being part of the union as have the other members. the problem seems to be that now there is oil and gas reserves for the near future see themselves living in a wealthier environment maybe like Kuwait and that everybody is going to have wonderful lives (that seems to be the big sell) and the people are being tempted by that, so now for the first time they have a advantage the want to dump the rest of the uk including their fellow Celts for personal prosperity . that sounds like a capitalist state rather than the socialist state the people want, all I would say is be very careful about who you trust in any government, Scotland may well be better off financial in the coming years but it may not be the Scottish majority that see them benefits but the selected minority as always happens when there is a big prize. in my view the Scottish people will end up eventually with a fat cat greedy government like they have now the only difference being is that the will be Scottish and maybe you would be happier with that, but what happens in 20, 30, 0r even in 40 years when the oil has gone and the money was only reinvested into the pockets of a few, there is no doubt that we will have more Scottish million and billionaires but will the Scottish people be better off . just to finish , can all of this racist rubbish from both views finish as we as two nations have fought and died by each others side for centuries , have married each others people and lived in each others lands so can you all grow up a bit please. thank you mark leicester

    • Aljo says:

      You can agree or disagree but at least that is a reasonable and reasoned comment.

      Also it would be hard to disagree with the request for a bit of growing up..

  42. mark scott says:

    just 1 thing that nobody has seemed to mention is, I wonder how many of the nationalist would want independence if there was no oil reserves etc , those I give a lot of respect to because they truly want a Scottish state and of the others I wonder what the reaction would have been pre 1975 if the uk wanted to expel Scotland from the union because it would have been better off financially. that would have been a despicable act and very few in the union would have voted for it as tempting as it is to live in a wealthier state, I feel saddened that the uk is probably going to lose Scotland as a member but not because of oil, gas or money but because of history and the comradeship that has been part of our past. good luck Scotland I really hope that your dreams are realised but I do have my doubts. mark leicester

  43. David says:

    Can we order some massive English Coat Tails for the Scots to hide behind, what a let down.

    You could have freed us all!

  44. Firstly I like to say your are the numpty that knows nothing. England would sink without Scotland. We will have our independence and see how us as a country prospers. I think you need to go back to school or college and brush up on your economics. England are panicking in case we get independence. Which we will. In the future though Mr numpty get your facts right before you write a post. You made yourself look really dumb…

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