Where are the English-Americans?

There are Irish-Americans, Scots-Americans, Scotch-Irish-Americans, Welsh-Americans, Polish-Americans, German-Americans ,  Italian-Americans, Korean-Americans, Mexican Americans, Cuban Americans, Colombian Americans, Dominican Americans, Puerto Ricans, Spanish Americans, and Salvadoran Americans, Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Iranian-Americans,   and a host of other hyphenated  citizens  in the USA. Sometimes the hyphenation is based not on nationality but religion, for example, Muslim-American or Jewish-American.  Sometimes it is based on race as in African-American or Asian-American.

There is one seemingly glaring omission from the catalogue of the culturally undecided: English-Americans.   I say seemingly because there is a most  obvious explanation for their absence: England was the cultural founder of the USA. Englishness is the default culture of the USA. Consequently, when the English have emigrated to the USA over the centuries they have not come to a land they felt was wholly alien or with a sense of victimhood or paranoia about their new home.

The English were the numerically dominant settlers from the Jamestown settlement in 1607 until the Revolution. Moreover, and this is the vital matter, they were overwhelmingly the dominant settlers for the first one hundred years.  At the time of the first US census English descended settlers formed, according to the historical section of the American Bureau of Census,  sixty per cent of the white population (http://tinyurl.com/67faop70 )and the majority of the rest of the white population was from the non-English parts of Britain ( In 1790 the population of the USA was  3,929,214 of which 3,172,006 were white and  757,208 black. http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0056/tab01.pdf).
It is possible that  English ancestry was downplayed in the 1790 census and for much of the 19th century because of the anti-British feeling caused by the American Revolution and various disputes afterwards such as the war of 1812. If so, the under recording of English ancestry would  be amplified as the population expanded as time went on as the descendants of those wrongly classified continued the incorrect classification.   However, whichever figures are taken one thing is certain, by 1790 the template for American society was cut and most importantly English was the dominant language, a fact which alone shows who were the dominant group for no minority could force a language on a majority.

In the House of Commons on 22 March 1775 Edmund Burke made a plea for understanding of the American colonists’ demands  which was firmly based on their Englishness:

“…the people of the colonies are descendants of Englishmen…. They are therefore not only devoted to liberty, but to liberty according to English ideas and on English principles. The people are Protestants… a persuasion not only favourable to liberty, but built upon it…. My hold of the colonies is in the close affection which grows from common names, from kindred blood, from similar privileges, and equal protection. These are ties which, though light as air, are as strong as links of iron. Let the colonies always keep the idea of their civil rights associated with your government,—they will cling and grapple to you, and no force under heaven will be of power to tear them from their allegiance. But let it be once
understood that your government may be one thing and their privileges another, that these two things may exist without any mutual relation,—the cement is gone, the cohesion is loosened, and everything hastens to decay and dissolution. As long as you have the wisdom to keep the sovereign authority of this country as the sanctuary of liberty, the sacred temple consecrated to our common faith, wherever the chosen race and sons of England worship freedom, they will turn their faces towards you. The more they multiply, the more friends you will have; the more ardently they love liberty, the more perfect
will be their obedience. Slavery they can have anywhere. It is a weed that grows in every soil. They may have it from Spain, they may have it from Prussia. But, until you become lost to all feeling of your true interest and your natural dignity, freedom they can have from none but you…”(http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15198/15198-h/15198-h.htm#CONCILIATION_WITH_THE_COLONIES).

The  colonists for their part more often than not themselves as English. Even the rebels placed their rebellion on the ground that they were defending true English liberty, a liberty that had been usurped by the king.  The Declaration of independence is a catalogue of breaches of what the colonists considered were their rights as Englishmen. (https://englandcalling.wordpress.com/american-declaration-of-independence/)

The early  English predominance may not seem important at first glance because of the heavy non-Anglo-Saxon immigration which occurred from the eighteenth century onwards. Would not, a reasonable man might ask, would not the later immigration swamp
the earlier simply because of its greater scale? The answer is no  because the numbers of non-Anglo Saxons coming into America were always very small compared with the existing population of the USA. At any time in the development of the USA the bulk of the population were practisers of a general culture which strongly reflected that of the
original colonisers, namely the English.

A distinction needs to be made between settlers  and immigrants. Those colonising a land do not come with the intent to assimilate into an existing culture but to transplant their own ways onto fresh territory. The Greeks in the ancient world  are a prime historical  example.

The English who came to America in the 17th century  were intent on creating a world in  their own cultural  image, albeit with certain variations most notably different religious regimes.  This they did in ways which remain to this day.

When immigrants enter a country their descendants will generally in time adopt at least some of  the social and cultural colouring of the native population. Where there is no barrier such as racial difference or membership of an ethnic group with a very strong sense of identity such as the Jews,  assimilation will often be complete within a generation or two.  Even in a situation of deliberate conquest,  the invader if fewer  in number  than the conquered – as  is normally  the case  – will become integrated through intermarriage
and the general pressure of the culture of the majority population working through the generations. The demographic working out of the Norman Conquest  over several centuries as the French invaders became English  is a good example.

In the creation of a society, the further the distance from the founding culture the greater the need to maintain a sense of separateness.  It is interesting that other missing hyphenated Americans are Canadian-American, Australian-American and New Zealand-American.  That is plausibly  because they are coming from societies which derive ultimately from England and which were founded by predominantely English settlers.   That does raise the question of why the non-English Britons who went to the USA  have self-consciously maintained their hyphenated status, most notably the Scots and the Irish.  The answer most probably lies in the fact that they felt themselves to be peoples who were subject to England.  In short, they were people who bore a grudge against England. It is worth adding that Americans who call themselves Scots-American or Irish-American today are indistinguishable from American-Americans in everything except for a sentimental attachment to their Celtic ancestry and a residual polishing of an historical victimhood.

The  demographic significance of the English in the USA remains to this day.  It is true that the percentage of those formally  identifying themselves as of English origin has diminished.  The 1980 US Census showed 26.34%  of the US population (49, 598,035) claiming English ancestry (http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/pc80-s1-10/tab02.pdf).   There is no up to date census information, but the US Census Office’s  2008 American Community Survey shows only 9% of  respondents claiming English ancestry, although that still makes them the third most numerous national group after the Germans and the Irish (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ADPTable?_bm=y&-qr_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_DP2&-geo_id=01000US&-ds_name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-format=).

This strong diminution in 28 years makes no sense if it is taken as a literal reduction. Common sense says that millions of English descended people have not suddenly vanished from the USA.  Nor, in view of their early predominance and continuing substantial emigration of the English to the USA after independence, does it make any sense for there to be more Americans with Irish or German ancestry than English ancestry.

The explanation for the fall is plausibly threefold: as the founding culture of the USA those with English simply think of themselves as Americans;  as the oldest group in the USA, English ancestry on average is probably far more distant than other  ethnic groups and lastly many of those with English ancestry  will have  mixed that ancestry with other groups especially more recent arrivals and will have claimed that allegiance instead of English.  There is also the temptation in an age of group politics for people to claim an ancestry which they feel will be most advantageous to them. As the English in the USA do not make a song and dance about being English, other groups which do are likely to attract
those with a divided ancestry.  The prime example of this is the way American presidents claim Irish ancestry no matter how tenuous whilst often ignoring much more substantial English ancestry. (http://presidentsparents.com/ancestry.html).  There is also the general pressure of political correctness which casts WASPs (into which category English-Americans would  generally fall) as an abusive and dislikeable elite ethnicity.  That may
add to a general propensity to not identify as English.

A strong pointer to the continuing English connection with the USA are surnames. In 2000 the   US Census Office  released statistics showing that of the top ten most frequently occurring surnames in the USA, eight were of English/British origin.  http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/data/2000surnames/index.html

Because of her origins and history Englishness is   spread throughout US  society. Her law is founded on English common law. The most famous of  American law officers is the English office of sheriff. Congress imitates the eighteenth century British Constitution
(President = King; Senate = Lords; House of Representatives = The House of Commons) with, of course, the difference of a codified constitution. (It would incidentally be truer to describe the British Constitution as uncodified rather than unwritten). It is an irony that their system of government has retained a large degree of the   monarchical and aristocratic principles whilst that of Britain has removed power remorselessly from King and aristocracy and placed it resolutely in the hands of elected representatives who have no formal mandate beyond the  representation of their constituents.

The prime political texts of the American revolution were those of the Englishmen John Locke and Tom Paine. The American Constitution is  designed to alleviate faults in the
British Constitution not to abrogate it utterly. The first ten amendments which form  the American Bill of Rights draw their inspiration from the English Bill of Rights granted by William of Orange.

The  American Revolution was conducted by men whose whole thought was in the English political tradition. English influence is written deeply into the American  landscape. Take a map of the States and see how many of the place names are English, even outside the original thirteen colonies which formed the USA. Note that they are divided into parishes and counties.

Above all other cultural influences stands the English language. Bismarck thought that the fact that America spoke  English was the most significant political fact of his time. I am inclined to agree with him. But at a more fundamental level, the simple fact that English is spoken by Americans as their first language means that their thought processes will be broadly similar to that of the English. Language is the ultimate colonisation of a people.

Moreover, the English spoken by the majority of Americans is still very much the English of their forebears. It is, for  example, far less mutated than the English spoken in India. The English have little difficulty in understanding USA-born white Americans whatever their regional origin.  Americans often affect not to understand English accents other than received pronunciation, but it is amazing how well they understand them when they need something. Oscar Wilde’s aphorism that “America and England are two countries divided by a common language” was witty but, as with so much of what he said, utterly at variance with reality.

There is a special relationship between England and America but it is not the one beloved of politicians. The special  relationship is one of history and culture. American culture is an evolved Englishness, much added to superficially, but  which is  still remarkably and recognisably English. English-American would be a tautology.

The importance of the continuing influence of the English for the USA can be seen by imagining what the situation would be  were no  unhyphenated Americans, if there was no group within the population which was devoid of a sense of victimhood, of being ill-at-ease with the society in which its members were born and raised. All that would be left would
be a society in which every racial or ethnic group competed,. There would be no stability or sense of social cohesion.  At worst, it could be a recipe for incessant civil war.  The English descended and English assimilated part of the population which sees itself as simply American provides the ballast which holds US society upright.



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458 Responses to Where are the English-Americans?

  1. Pingback: Where are the English-Americans? (via England calling) « English Warrior

  2. Barry says:

    This piece is so true, but times are changing more so here in England rather than America. I find it astounding though that such a patriotic country which has obviously strong roots to England does not celebrate those roots more..nearly every fabric of American society has its base in English culture so why dont the English Americans stand up and say here we are, look at what we made lets celebrate it? Can this be sent to America and see what they think?

    • Paul Archer says:

      You must take into consideration that the early settlers in the ‘colonies’ were mainly non-conformists fleeing English religious state persecution, although persecution was outlawed in 1689 in England.Many people then followed from Continental Europe where state religious persecution continued.
      The majority of people who emigrated from England & other parts of the British Isles – Ireland & the Celtic Fringe were dissenters of English religious state.This is why the ‘free people of America’ (then, anyway 😉 ) do not celebrate English culture or the one that that was fostered upon them by the English state, it is hard to extrapulate one from the other.You could say, the early developement of America was based on anti-English state feeling (or European anti-religious state feeling – varied for each country / state & religious affiliation).

  3. Sarah says:

    I’m sure I read something along the lines that at one time the US census let you record all your ‘identities’ but that was relatively recently to the top two or something like that which in part may have caused the drop in English americans

  4. ste says:

    The Colonists fought for the Rights and Liberties of Englishmen, it must have been so wonderful for all those destitute irish, Scotch etc etc to go to such an Anglo Saxon-esque Country and enjoy all of England ancient rights and liberties, it is obvious that these immigrants took with them their historical inferiority complex and chip on each shoulder towards England, and were.are so insecure in their own identity that they did and probably still do, are insecure enough and feel the need to identify themselves not on who they are, but who they are not, that would be ‘not English’.
    As for the English Americans, no doubt they just call themselves Americans, as they have no deep rooted and historical Inferiority complex.

  5. ste says:

    Imagine if the Colonists were Scotch and not English, theyd have fought for Independence-lite, wanting England to stay out of it’s affairs but expecting England to foot the Bill – which is what is happening right now in the sham that is the “UK”.

  6. ste says:

    How many Soldiers does the Irish Republic of Brussels contribute towards helping out America in Wars and Conflicts?.

    • Dave says:

      Enough pal considering Ireland is militarily neutral and your forgetting Ireland allowing US war planes to land in shannon and the taking in of terror sleeper cells from quantanamo bay at the request of the US government.. Tell me smartarse how many countries shut down their government when the going gets tough?

  7. Antony says:

    Robert Henderson asks the sort of questions I’ve been asking myself for years. Better yet he answers them. I knew nothing of this research. I shan’t expect any additional publicity unless it turns up a dud, by which point the BBC is certain to be all over the story, but thank you for bringing it to our attention. Another good article.

  8. Michelle says:

    Most early settlers/colonists were pilgrams and religious protestants, and even though these were majority of English people the fact that they mostly came from the west of England and the fact they were mostly pre-Anglo-Saxonss shows the difference between the Anglo-Saxon English and Celtic/Briton English. Am talking about the people who were in England be before the Germanic Saxons came, thoese people were mostly pushed away to the west country of England, those are the people who are Celts/Brythonics whome became religious and like someone said have inferior complex, hence of not getting on with pure Anglo-Saxon English.

  9. Tobbs Jamison says:

    Michelle what you are saying has no basis in historical facts. People who colonized America came from all over of england. Yes some of them were rebellious but not all went for that reason. I would certainly add that amongst most it was not on ethnic grounds. Your comment assumes that the English were purely descended from Germanic Saxons which even that is not entirely true. Whilst the distinguishing factor for the English is their germanic connections their commonality with all other Britons remains that they are the descendants of ancient Britons who were the original inhabitants of these islands. In fact like the Irish and the Scots they have Celtic/ brythonic origins as well. Certainly the English in America did not have any inferiority complex at all they demanded their englishness more so than the English in the mother country. Their demands was in fact as Edmund Burke alludes in line with what english expectations of the times were. I think in today’s America political correctness has made most english Americans fear to acknowledge their identity. The english are blamed for doing horrible things but never applauded for making America what it is.

    I am an English American but i can tell you if i were to tout my identity like the Irish does i would be labeled a racist or shut down. What you see in the 2000 census is what people would prefer to be labeled as not who they really are. I can tell you this most British Americans have little or no knowledge of their family origins. Note this, 51% of people who claim Irish ancestry according to 2000 census were protestants even thought the face of Irish Americanism is catholic. How ironic is that. To add more to that so called the scotch -Irish label is included in the count of Irish Americans even though the scotch Irish are culturally Anglo-Saxon and are the mixer of English and Scottish settlers in ulster and they are not included in both Scottish American and english American count. The victim politics of America often distorts its cultural and ethnic heritage. Most Americans especially white American probably have some english roots somewhere even if they don’t acknowledge them. Someone once commented that being Irish gives you the benefit of being white without being tainted by the historical baggage and perhaps that is why most Americans find it easy to be Irish however tenuous it may be than to embrace their more prominent heritage.

    • Mike says:

      Thanks for your explanation! In 1820, I believe the population of Londonderry in Northern Ireland was a mixture of 25% English, 25% Scots, and the rest native Irish.
      The alien Scots and English population in NI were the ones who migrated en masse to America, not just from Northern Ireland but also from the English Scottish border region where the population is Mainly of English descent on both sides of the border.
      The Scots will deny this but if you’re ever in that part of the world have a look and judge for your self. At least that’s what we were taught when I went to school.
      So It’s always been hard for me to understand what happened to all the English who migrated to America from the English Scots border region and from Ulster. Did they all get labelled Scots Irish because the Americans didn’t know any better?

  10. michael says:

    firstly there is no evidence that the people of the west of england are less english because of there so called briton genes – its a total celtic myth. r1a and i haplogroup is found in devon abd cornwall. new research shows that old english could have been spoken much earlier. genetics and language are different things. the dutch are genetically related more to the irish most are r1b yet the germans are less r1b. the irish like the basques also contain i haplogroup. not all irish are r1b or the same type of r1b. infact the types of r1b found in ireland are shared with britain infact some of types must of,crossed britain into ireland anyway. the point is the irish arent pure either, look at the range of eye, hair colour, red hair not from spain. the point is the english dont shout about themselves the irish do! they are seen as cooler not because everyone is pure gaelic heritage and culture. there were britons who adopted gaelic language and culture, many irish were scots irish or protestants. not.all irish were gaelic origins or catholic. there was a celtic culture across europe, celtic languages were a separate thing. you could speak a germanic language but a celtic type culture. infacts celts in british isles show northern european dna on the female lines, hence the blue eyes and.red/blond hair. old english and what is termed anglo saxon culture is probably the language and culture of england throughout. those anglo saxons that did come adopted the native tongue and culture, this was shared across regardless of genes. the english are no more mixed than anyone else. infact some gene groups are unique to britain.

    • Paul Archer says:

      The Cornish are 80% R1b.They have 2 x as much of Rb1-L21 (the one predominant in Wales, Ireland & Scotland) as they have of the predominantly Nordwestblock Rb1-S21 or U106, probably mostly dating back before 1000 BC i.e. basically, pre-Germanic (although the present German population also carry this haplogroup as well – through Nordwestblock intermixing – this haplogroup is confusingly called Germanic, however).This sub-Rb1 haplogroup out dates the Old Frisian language which was adopted by pre-Frisian people who come to be known after an early / pre-Roman Danish peninsula elite people conquered them who they believed were descendents of Yngvi Frey – hence Frey / Frisian) .It should not be regarded as an Anglo-Saxon haplogroup.Old Frisian & Old English (probably, a pidgin Old Frisian language spoken with a Brittonic accent).There is a smaller amount of Rb1 haplogroup which has a strong Norman (or Anglo-Norman link).Normans carried Gallic French genes to British Isles predominantly.There are genetic traces in Cornwall that are neolithic or spread during the tumulus (bell beaker) era which is higher than most of the UK in general etc.
      There is very little trace of Saxon genes (a confederation of different Nordic & to a lesser degree Slavonic tribes etc.) in the whole of England, think I read 4%.Cornwall has vertially none of these.The Cornish people have kept a seperate identity up to modern times, they were anglised / chose to (forced to?) adopt English language by a Norman elite as late the up to 14th century.
      Devon has a different genetic mix again, you could say, a half way zone between what you find in Somerset or Dorset & Cornwall.

  11. michael says:

    ethnic politics always rule in america. the english have been shouted down. who shouts.the.loudest get heard. the english in englabd called themselves englisc not anglo-saxon, people in the.west midlands and devon see themselves as english, kinship and clans were important in germanic speaking areas as well as celtic ones.

  12. Tobbs Jamison says:

    Michael is talking genetics which is cool. If we go on the genetics most of us aren’t probably what we say we are. Talking about America i can only say since Kennedy, being Irish is seen as cool. Cool for what you can ask. In fact most folks who claim irishness (plastic paddys) have other more prominent ancestries than Irish. I have always had a problem with folks who will pick and choose which identity they will align themselves with regardless of its prominence. Obama is 3% Irish, 50% African and about 40% english but i guess the english bloc isn’t fun enough for him and many other Americans with prominent english ancestry. Hillary Clinton has northern english roots and some about 4% welshness but she talks proudly of her welsh grandmothers roots than her other more prominent roots. Her Husband Bill Blythe Clinton is probably more english than Irish even though he is seen as trying too hard to be irish. He is the only American president whose irishness is doubted (check wikipaedia). I am Certain that if you go to the south about 70 years ago most folks down there would have openly and proudly acknowledged their Anglo-Saxon roots. This reminds me of something; just before Columbus day holiday my son was asked to participate in a cultural event at school. This was a way of celebrating cultural diversity of America. Now, the children were asked to dress up in various national dress that represent their cultural and ethnic heritage and also bring stories about their culture. Being a proud english American my son represented his english heritage. I was a bit angry when my son was asked by the organizer whether he is really sure he wants to represent the english. Well you know, the teacher said to him that might backfire somewhat. I thought that comment by the teacher was bizarre to begin with. I just thought of giving a bit of historical fact that most people in colonial America were english. The founding fathers were mostly english, the constitution was written is english for that fact and that is the very reason we speak english in America today. How can any American whose roots is english or not be not proud of American english values and heritage. Like it or not they are the foundation of America. The english never came to America with victim mentality that is why they are often called by demographers an invisible majority in America. They came to America english and stayed American. That is the reason why even today they are not hyphenated.

    • mickeycool34 says:

      I agree but i think certain groups use a genetic stance when its a cultural thing. I just think mainly people are afraid to say they are english when they know they are. Most use irish scots welsh as these are cool celtic cultures but dont even practice these cultures. The differences on the british isles arent genetic cultural as most cultures in britain are similar same humour way of life foods with only minor regional variations people latch on to political and historical differences when they are no longer relevant cheers

      • Mike says:

        I remember a writer in the UK, who claimed that you can judge if you are in a Celtic part of Britain by the amount of old wrecks left rotting away in the back yards.

  13. Barry says:

    Tobbs you need to start something, you need to ensure your English brother’s and sister’s have a way of expressing themselves as other people’s who have come to America and make it what it is today can.
    Lets face it many immigrants who come to other shores had to fight for their rights and to be
    Recognised and the English have never been scared to do that!!!
    Jamestown Virginia is where America was born and it was founded by the English, that should be celebrated every year, why don’t you start a yearly celebration of that fact, do you celbrate bonfire night? If not that is something you could get going a great English(protestant) tradition.
    (look up Lewes and it’s bonfire night celebration) something like that in new England would be awesome….

  14. Tobbs Jamison says:

    Barry thats a very good suggestion you made there. I just wonder if it will easily take root in a politically intensely correct America. During my dad’s youth days in the 50s one’s englishness was a proud badge to wear. Nowadays it is wrongly married with racists, fascists and all sorts of ugly side of racist America and the hated ethnic elite that is to blame for everything thats wrong with America. One thing i can tell you is there is a lot to celebrate about englishness in America. The dedication, determination, sense of duty, pride in honor and country and the undying patriotism that owe its traits to America’s english heritage.
    You know, My Grandfather was a tall fellow from Kansas and he was immensely proud of his roots. What i know of him was, he was a proud Anglo American. He can easily recount his family achievements and retrace his roots way back to the early seventeen hundreds. I did not even know what geordie is; but somehow through my granddad i knew we had geordie roots. Forgive me perhaps for being a dumb American but i always assumed that that only meant we can trace our roots way back to the times of king George. Now can you imagine any english American being that proud?.
    This past summer i was in Ohio and being unschooled in the matters of culture we had a pit stop in a small town on our way with friends to Michigan. There were hundreds of families watching men dancing, wearing wooden shoes, waving hankies and riding stick horses and that attracted my attention. I was told by one of the folks there that it was an old english traditional dance. I was really surprised i did not really think the english had folk dances. I guess what i thought of the english is true with most Americans. You know, i have always suspected that country music must have a colonial tinge somehow. And while i was there there was a fellow playing country music. You know what he said; he said quote “you know the english forebears left us a treasure in this music.” I guess he must have sensed some Geordieness in me when he went on to say, quote ” Country in an American folk of old geordie culture”. Being me i asked him ” Did they sing country back then in the old geordie?. He looked at me and said, “HELL YA”. So there are Americans who are proud of their english heritage and appreciate it a lot. They are not racist, they are not elitists; they are just ordinary hard working Americans. As for the old culturisms of the old england i don’t think most english Americans know or care much about them. I guess its a matter of education we can always i think relearn what we thought will never be important. The unique thing about the english in America is, they came to America and never looked back.

    • Barry says:

      Tobbs, to be frank fuck the rest of America they do what they want dont they? They have millon mile marches and hispanic quarters etc, someone should point out the names you have in America, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Boston, I could go on New York, New Jersey, New England, New Hampshire…. where do they think they came from?

      The clue is in the language although the Americans speak a slightly different form of English however throughout England English is spoken slightly diffrently with local dialects and names given to everyday things as you have in the states which is probably where it came from in the first place.

      Who would know if America would pick up on the English tradition thing if nobody actually tries to do it? A month before November 5th suggest a bonfire night with friends I bet it will take off as it has here…give it a go..it amazes me many American’s come here and visit England in the main and mainly London and I have not met one of them that did not love it, that in mind if they were English you would have thought they would have wanted to celebrate their link to the British Crown that some in America cannot do because of their hispanic, Irish, African or other roots.

      Be English and be proud, Anglo Americans are a huge group and they should not be scared to say so in a so called free country we were the first free country by the way not America which others always forget we gave this to you with your laws and sherrifs!!

      I know what it is, Americans(some) hate to acknowledge anyone of especially British decent because that would acknowledge something they do not want to remember that we owend the country it is something most Americans want to forget and therefore throw themselves into the July4th Independence day celebrations…funny how when you do it’s not mentioned from who the independance is gained very much…I am right arent I?

      Once America accepts its Anglo/Saxon/Britanic roots and stops clinging to Ireland and other nations(Italy) then the country itself will be better off and Anglo Americans can be proud again of what they have given to America…it’s Birth…now beat that!!

  15. Tobbs Jamison says:

    I can see Barry is very impassioned. I would definitely try that bonfire thing on the next November 5th and invite my Irish neighbor to enjoy together. I have always told my neighbor that his last name being Johnson that he is an Irishman of english descent. Perhaps it will be a good idea to invite him next November to rediscover his englishness. As for Americans loving england ; my God they do love it a lot. Americans love your monarchy for the reasons hardly understood. However most Americans don’t go to england like they would to Ireland. It is not really the ancestral pride that draws them to england but rather their fantasies about the British monarchy. Would any Anglo American celebrate the British crown? That i doubt. Most British Americans have a concept of republicanism as part of their DNA. The ideal of that freedom having been historically gained by blood and sweat of their ancestors from the oppressive claws of British monarchy is sacred indeed. That freedom meant amongst other things being free from monarchical rule. You can say that the Anglo Americans have been self hating ever since American independence. You may be right about 4th of July. 4th of July somehow looks like an anti British bash party in some ways . May be it is the way we teach history in America. It is so anti British it hurts. Have you seen how Hollywood treats British characters in their films, they are always villains. Your accent is very smart and sounds intelligent however you can see that the attitudes towards the Brits is somewhat rugged despite so called special relationship.

    Let me ask you this, have you ever seen any American visiting over there going to the villages and to the small churches looking into baptismal registry for their ancestral history?. If it happens it is very rare. However thats what they do when the visit Ireland. You know what, I can blame you guys in england for not doing much to tap into your historical roots with America. Most of your politicians think sucking up to the American government foreign agenda brings you closer. What you folks do makes you look desperate for American attention and it loses you credibility. Look at Ireland it doesn’t even have to bow to American hegemony but American presidents and some Americans once every 17th of march kneel down for the Irish. You can do that even better and i know it can work because thats what the Irish do best. Why don’t you set up centers in London and throughout American major cities to invite Americans to rediscover their British roots. You could invite people to learn about the history of their surnames and what they mean and what regions of Britain they originate. This can work because eight out of ten most common surnames in America are British. The three most common last names are english. You can even talk about the family histories of Americas founding father almost all of them being British and mostly english. Talk about the places where their families originates rather than leave them to the mercy of the INTERNET and Wikipaedia where there is always a citation needed whenever you happen to mention the english. Why don’t you do that. What is even worse is, why don’t you lobby your government to make St. Georges day a public holiday so that you can promote the cultural values and greatness of you country. Two years ago i was in London and i was amazed to see people celebrating St Paddy’s in the streets of London. It was not even Northern Ireland but London England. St Patrick was not celebrated for the reason of the saint being of British origin but rather for all reasons associated with irishness. To me as an American it looks like the Anglos in england aren’t that self loving either. So what about that.

    • Barry says:

      Tobbs , you are so right about St paddy’s day, to be honest it makes me sick, that our government and our capital London, pays for st patrick’s day but REFUSE to pay for ST George’s Day, why I have no idea but it is probably because of the same reasons you cant shout about being Anglo American in America, it is probably seen as being racist in some sort of way.

      Fortunately for you you are not forced to be part of something you never wanted to be or voted for…yes I am talking about EUROPE..we are NOT EUROPEAN. The English Channel prevents from being European we are distinctly Britanic/Anglo. Europeans have always had borders with other European countries are used to doing deals with each other it was only a matter of time before it became formalised.

      That is all good but the people in the UK and the majority of them in England NEVER voted to be part of Europe but because we are, we have laws that you do not…Human Rights legislation is killing this country and Germany and France are rubbing their hands waiting to take England and dominate her, they have tried to do it by force in the past and lost this time it will be by stealth, if for example the Greater London Assembly refused to pay for a St Patrick’s Day in London they may well have been taken to the European court of Human Rights and so not to risk it they just pay for it instead, the English are not only apathetic to England but have had it drilled intot them that to be English is to be racist and so many just do not bother with St George’s Day in case they are labelled racist that is what this country has been driven to and nobody outside England knows or even less cares about this, they lump us all toghether as British but did you know Scotland will most probably in a few years time be a country in it’s own right…they want independance from the UK, but they are allowed to flaunt their scottishness we are not allowed to even say I am English, I cant work it out and less care, I fly my flag and to hell with what people think I love England and I am proud that such a small country gave so much to the world.

      Your neighbour sounds English tell him to look up his roots, Tobbs look up the English Democrats on the web go to their website and then you will see what I am on about honestly you couldn’t make it up, when you do find it what i do ask is that you spread the word to all Anglo americans and try and get one of the local news broadcasters to pick it up try and get the ball rolling over their to support your English cousins in the motherland that might not exist much longer if Europe and the Scottish that are in our Government at the moment have their way(Our current prime minister does not recognise the English, and the previous Prime Minister said England as a nation did not exist) now can you see what we are up against(Email Robin Tilbrook he will fill you in he is the leader of the English Democrats)

    • Geordie Mike says:

      This is an excellent tool for finding out a surnames place of origin in the UK. It has two search options one for 1880, and another to search for the present day distribution.

      People didn’t move around so much in the 1800’s so it’s interesting to see where the names originate. It also gives the racial origin of the names. The International version is not very good however.

  16. Tobbs Jamison says:

    I will concede to you that i really do not know much about your politics. I did look up English democrats as you suggested and read a thing or two about Mr. Tilbrook. Having done that i did also consult with a friend of mine who is British and used to work for the charity English Heritage. Her name is Sophia Nance. She is Here in America on apprentiship. Now, Miss Nance tells me the following:
    There is resurgence in england of what is seen by some as english nationalism. According to her it is not really about nationalism as such but english sensibilities about cultural identity and distinctiveness and sense of territory. However this so called resurgence of englishness has nothing or little to do political struggle for english separatism. She say in the UK, with the population of over 60 million people only less than 10% is not english. The english are so dominant numerically that even the smaller constituents of the UK have enormous english influence in them. She says Scotland may have a devolved parliament but culturally Scotland is so close to england it is very unlikely that Scotland will push independence in the foreseeable future. She says politics in Scotland revolves around liberal socialism and for years with the weak to not existent conservative party the only alternative to the dominance of Scottish labor party has been the nationalist SNP. Most Scots voted in SNP as an alternative to years of labor rather than as a yes move for Scottish independence. She says as a matter of reality, however distinct you may want to paint you identity most Scots have english relatives. It is a fact that both Scotland and England are closely intertwined than most people would want to accept. She says in the past Anglo-Scottish wars more often the lowland Scots who considered themselves Anglo-Saxons (as they were formally part of the kingdom of Northumberland) sided with the english. Scotland as a country we know today did not exist then.

    Taking it from Ms. Nance, given the perceived dominance of England both culturally and numerically your political class may wrongly or not thought it is not in the interest of the UK to devolve power to england as it did with Scotland and wales. I did hear that the conservatives while in opposition were more favorable to devolve power to england but because of political complexities in the conservative party your current prime minister thought it may be wise not to deal with the question now. This is so called the west lothian question. I did also hear from miss Nance that Labor had a plan to devolve power by dividing england into 9 self governing regions. I guess for most folks who want english parliament you are looking at the issue from the point of fairness whilst your politicians think this issue may have significant political and jurisdictional ramifications. To labor devolution was done to protect the interests of so called threatened Scots and welsh but by so doing it brought forth more questions than solutions about the nature of the union. Now the question is should the UK be a federal state and be broken up from its current form. According to Ms. Nance most of this resurgence of englishness is the result of people feeling they are sidelined and are disproportionately dealt unfairly by the political system. She says effectively the default culture of the UK is largely english and that alone signify how dominant the english are. This numerical and cultural dominance is sometimes described by some in Scotland as the sleeping power for the fact that it is not shouted at but you know its there and everywhere. She says that is why in most cases Englishness and Britishness is often easily confused with one or the other more so than Scottishness and Britishness would be. What is your take.

    • Barry says:

      Blimey Tobbs, you have thrown a spanner in the works their, I am not sure Miss Nance is correct on her points regarding Scotland and them not wanting independance, many English people do not know how anti-English the Scottish are, because of this independance from the UK is paramount to them becuase independance from the UK is to be free of English oppression once and for all.

      Wales has Plaid Cymru which is a national party as well and England has the English Democrats. The EDP work with both the SNP and Plaid as they all want the same things or near enough. Both the SNP and Plaid have increased their share of the vote year on year so much so in Scotland the SNP now run Scotland and want independance.

      The region thing was a Labour and a European suggestion in which England would become a region of Europe and it would leave Wales and Scotland whole(work that out!!) what a disgusting idea.

      People in Scotland maywell be related to peoples of England and vice versa that will not stop them asking for independance. Voter apathy is rife in England, they vote for the party and do not care who it is standing for that party and do not demand a choice from the big 3 they just vote for a colour or name and go home, then moan about their decision for 4 years and do the same all over again…when I say vote for the party what I mean is the vote for a party they have heard of they do not actually care what they are or what they can do they just exercise their right to vote and go home smugly thinking to themselves I have voted I have had say in voting for my government but in reality they had no say they voted for one of 3 very similar parties because the others either could not get air time or AFFORD to run for parliament to actually get noticed and if they did get noticed will anybody actually listen to what they say over politicians who they know so well from telly? No.

      Let’s be 100% sure here to be English in England today is a crime, you will be accused of being racist if you shout it too loud and that is why the English Democrats are popular they are the only party standing up for the people of England(Labour,Conservatives&Liberal Democrats are British party’s) what did you think of the site?

      Do me a favour and email Robin ask him some question’s he can explain better than me, but what is happening is real and it’s not a figment of the English man’s imagination we are under threat just because it is not in our face does not mean it is not happening oh and i hope you have a St George’s cross over their to fly from your house just to show your proud English roots.

  17. Tobbs Jamison says:

    I am sure you will love this Barry. Just two days ago i talked to folks i happen to know from way back. One is from Ohio and the other is from Rhode Island and they were talking about celebrating St. Gs day in 2012. Mr. Gerry Thompson and Prof A. Neilson receptively are to involve people across America who has english ancestry and those who may not but have interest in english culture and history to learn more about english roots and history. They say it is not only about celebrating englishness in America but also learning about the foundations of America. This will involve people from all walks of life, liberals, conservatives, cowboys and towners alike. Neilson says he has always been interested in the changing demographies of America and how if has affected the founding groups. I have been trying to find out about the actual itinerary unfortunately i could not get my hands on it. Its only sad that i only managed to talk to them briefly but at the same time it is fascinating that there are people who are truly trying to revive something about a forgotten cultural heritage. As for the flag, i have a huge union jack on the roof of my pick up truck but i am thinking of adding St Gs on the hood of my truck and replace Union Jack with Olde Glory. Your politics over there are very Intriguing indeed. Listening to you i never thought UK is in a struggle within itself and thats very tough indeed.

    • Barry says:

      things started change politically when the labour socialist government deicded to in order to keep as many votes as possible give Scotland and Wales more automony in doing so they also decided the English tax payer pays for it, as we do for Scottish tuition fees and free perscriptions north of the border thung is nobody outside of the UK knows about it let alone cares we are just lumbered and have to get on with it. Look up barnett formula then you will understand.

      Excellent news about your friends please point them in the direction of the English Democrats and they can put them in touch with English organisations here as well let them we are supporting them all the way in their endevaours.

      A St George’s Day@Jamestown would be awesome in the birthplace of America.

      I for one have a very bad taste in my mouth when someone mentions irish american’s not because they are irish but because i know many irish american’s funded NORAID who funded the IRA who in turn blew up and murdered in cold blood English/British soldiers and English/British civillians in England(Scotland/Wales were not bombed at all) and Northern Ireland I can never forgive that and neither should america forget what the Irish Americans are prepared to do for their cousins America should remember and forget history at their peril….

      Did you email Robin?

  18. Tobbs Jamison says:

    Yes i did. Although you did not leave me the address i did find the link up. I have received some literature about ED but not anything directly from Robin. Talking about Irish Americans. Your PM Margret Thatcher was deemed very close to President Reagan while by that time in the 80s the Irish fund-raising for nationalists in Northern Ireland was going on. Why is it that your Special relationship with the US never got the US to stop this menace. People would channel money for the course that was completely unrelated to their lives. I never knew and still do not think that it is the US’s foreign policy objective to tear apart another country. I thought the behavior by some Irish-Americans was unbecoming, underhanded and downright appalling. How could anybody gunner to support the minority to obliterate the will of the majority. You Know at beginning of my awareness about the Irish question I had presumed that the nationalists were the majority in Northern Ireland and only to learn it is not true. Why is it that your country do not make the special relationship benefit you. I have watched in horror when people like Congressman Peter King of New York support the IRA endeavor in the UK. What were you people in the UK thinking when this was going on and did you really think the so called special relationship worked for you.

    You know here in the US conservative think the British are dependable friends while the liberals think you are trying too hard to be close to the US sometimes at your peril. Your government supports the US at all costs even if it costs you negatively. Why is that. There was also that satirical comment about Tony Blair being George Bush’s poodle. I am sure it did as you say affect some of your country men’s attitude toward Irish America. I do recall in one of the newspaper a quote from a Brit during the death of Ted Kennedy someone writing quote” I do not feel a dint of pity even thought because of my values i will not celebrate someone else’s death but i do feel that there is nothing worthing celebrating about the man whose family and his demeanor through much of his life sought to tear apart the foundations of my country”. I thought to myself, in the US this man is celebrated as coming from the family that has done so much for America and yet in clinging to the ideals of Irishness in America he has done more harm in another country where whatever support he gives has physical implications. That is very much an irony. You know i do not mind if one celebrates his identity or even flaunts it but i have always thought that being an American its a rebirth and a sense of taking a new step in a new direction. By so doing one shall never partake in pitch battles of the old stable. Clinging to the troubles of the old world and making them a business of the new is never an American ideal.

    • barry says:

      Americans do make me smile sometimes when their government spouts retriol about fighting terrorists but allowed their own people to raise money for a known terrorist organisation and then they complain when oaklahoma and 9/11 happen. I stand shoulder to shoulder with the US, not because my government does but because fundamentaly we are the same and think the same. I was disgusted at the above events mentioned, I was as in shock as you were when they happened but I also sat and thought know America knows what it is like to be attacked(I did not think you deserved it by any shot), let’s face it you never believed anyone could do it, or would even attempt it, that was your biggest mistake.

      Arrogance has cost America dear and add assumption into the mix you have a right cocktail of not if but when it will happen and it did. I did think however know America knows what the result is when you fund terrorism this is what it causes this what it buys..death, destruction and mayhem.

      I could not understand why America did not do more under the so called special relationship, which I do believe is genuine, well I love America for loads of reasons but probably not the reasons most do and think most Americans feel the same for us deep down. I am not sure how much your government did to shut noraid down but i believe it may well have tried to(I hope so anyway).

      I totally agree that it is a rebirth when you become american I hate it when people say African American why cant it just be american now? Let’s face it if you are born their you are not anything but American you may have roots that go back to another land but the land in which you were born was America and that is all you know, it’s farcical to say or pretend otherwise, that is not to say you cannot have an interest in your roots or investigate them that is a different thing all together. My family have links to America, my grandparents family married US servicemen in the war and moved to the states, god knows their names or who they are but I know they did.

      As for your congressman if he can support one terrorist organisation what is to stop him supporting another, EVERYONE in America should ask themselves that before they vote for him again, he should be stripped of his post and dishonoured as to support terrorists wherever they are is wrong, why does America allow him to flaunt that but you cant even say you are an Anglo American, why is that? You should be asking some stern questions of you government on this issue and your media both local and national, I would for one be worried about that.

      Tobbs let me know how your friends get on with the EDP and their preparations also you might want to get yourself a St Edmund flag(this is complicated but it was our flag before the st George cross) that will really confuse the anti English brigade over their try this site http://england-flags.com/index.php/st-edmund
      I know it is a tad confusing but basically we have stuck with the cross of st George for such a long time most do not know any different, but it is fun looking back and bringing out the other flags to confuse the fuck out of some who seem to see our national flag and loathe it, a heraldic flag with english lions, irish harp and others on is another one to roll out it looks very royal and again will confuse all whom see it without any notion of history…

      Please while you are at it spread the word about my team AFC Wimbledon that is another story all together..

  19. Charles Idemi says:

    From these premise i can conclude that most Americans are of English descent and this will make them to be largest ethnic group and not Germany…Most Americans of English ancestry prefer to be called Americans…

    • It is certainly true that the most common ancestor is one from England. At the time of independent, around 63% of the white population of the 13 colonies were classified as English.

    • barry says:

      Whats your point?

      • John William Owens says:

        Hello, My name is John Owens and I am an English American besides being Korean, Irish and American Indigenous( my alternative and preference to Native American). I am attracted to this article talking about English Americans because I am naturally curious of my racial ethnicity and have talked to my grandmother about the Owens family history which started my interest. I was told by grandmother that my early English ancestors who came to America in the 17th Century were Anabaptist and I have limited knowledge of the Owens family history.

    • maccarthaigh says:

      i wonder what the german americans will have to say about such a brainless uneducated statment

      • barry says:

        So what makes you educated in such matters please tell us uneducated types so we know where we are going wrong!!

      • Tobbs Jamison says:

        MacCarthaigh I just wonder what is your point exactly. What is so brainless about such a statement about German Americans. I do not see any profanity there. The responded is only pointing to what he sees as fact in his eyes. Please educate us the uneducated. You made a very brazen attack on the english as people who took what is not theirs. You know MacCarthaigh everywhere in history every group or nation that has been in the forefront of history somewhere somehow in every gain it made it caused some pain. You may place the same accusation on the ancient Romans, the Greeks, the Zulus, Gingis Khan and so on. You can even as we speak place the same accusation on the American government today and the wars it have fought so far. This my friend it is the cause and consequence of being in the thick of history. Surely as an English American i will admit that the English being at the head of history they made mistakes along as it would be expected if we point back to history but at the same-time they made a significant contribution to the world today. You may have your own reasons for blaming the English for any other ills you may have in mind about them but the fact remains the English being a small nation they have truly made an outstanding mark in history. Many proud and bold nations arouse from that english conquest and dominance such as the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and so forth. Do the english have to apologize for everything? I would openly say to you certainly not.

        Last year in march i was in Boston Mass. I am sure you know the City of Boston was named after a town in England. While i was there i had a very interesting conversation about the wrongs of the English with an Irish guy ironically called Smith. I though the accusation on the English were a bit trivial and tribal at times. You know some people in America find it easy to accuse the english colonialists for stilling the land from the Indians. That may be true as far as the facts of history say but what exactly is the point of that. I said to the fellow quote ” Are you American and proud?” and Smith as i would expect said YES. I said how can you be proud of the nation and country that was founded on ill gotten gains of the English on the backs of the Indians. You cannot select and deselect the moments in history that you think are politically suitable to your interests ignore the rest. Here in the States you’ll always come across folks who will remark how the English did horrible things and they can’t even name a thing. Give the English a break will ya!

      • barry says:

        Well said tobbs well said!!

      • MUNSTER FAN says:

        Well Macarthaigh, or should I say McCarthy, you’re the one who seems to be uneducated, especially in your own history.
        We, the Irish, were trying to take from the Brits long before they took from us. If that were not true, there would be no place by the name of Scotland. It would still be called Pictland. Scotland is named after the Scotti, who were Irish raiders who invaded Britain after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Romano British Celts were unable to defend themselves and hired Angle, Saxon and Jute mercenaries to expel the Scotti (seemed like a good idea at the time). They were only partially successful, hence Scotland and not Pictland.
        Also, the Scotti, kidnapped and enslaved that world famous Brit, St. Patrick. They brought him back to Ireland, taught him our ways and unleashed him upon the World. Yes, it’s true; all of us patriotic Paddies march up and down main streets all over the world celebrating a Brit. So cheer up Barry and don’t be so sick. Join the celebration. He is, after all, one of yours.
        Furthermore McCarthy, I mean Macarthaigh (snobby Irish cultural elitist), more than one third of that British Army and Navy that took from everyone else, that defeated Napoleon at Waterloo and sunk the French/Spanish fleet at Trafalgar were in fact Irish, including many of your ancestors.
        Finally, recent recession aside, we owe our recent economic success to the massive inward investment from all around world. This is not because everyone loves us, as I have no doubt you believe. This is down to four things, our low corporation tax, our law, our language and our culture. The Brits have absolutely nothing to do with the first, everything to do with the second and third, and a great deal to do with the fourth. Thank God and St. Patrick we no longer have to use that primitive an Ghaeilge. If we did we’d still be a Third World country.
        Now McCarthy, I hope you feel more enlightened.

  20. John William Owens says:

    Dear Barry,

    I did not intend to place my response under your comment, but I cannot figure out how to place a seperate comment with space away from other people’s response. I apologize for my shortcomings and will attempt to fix any technical irregularities on webpage.

  21. Barry says:

    No problem at all John what are your thoughts on what I have said?

  22. John Owens says:

    I am very impressed on how you have spoken on the subject matter regarding the connection to English Americans and the English from past to present. I know very little of my English ancestry and here is what I do know: My English ancestors by blood dating back to the Medevil times were Nobles and they were most likely Catholics then. This is just a theory. Let me leap forward in time here, 15th Century, I do not know whether or not my English ancestors decided to stay Catholic or decided to become Anabaptist or Puritans. Let me leap forward to the 18th Century, they may have decided to settle in Colony America to start a new life or were already there in the late 17th Century. I was wrong about I commenting that my grandmother told me about my early English ancestors when they came to America and she never told about this.

  23. John Owens says:

    What I meant is my grandmother only knew about the Bray family history and knew very little about the Owens family history, but I came up with the theories regarding my English ancestry. I confused myself, did I? Now I may be feeling terrible for confusing myself and the theories about the Owens family do not make sense. Sorry Barry. I made a mistake and my theories about the Owens family are just guesses, but nowhere near the actual truth. To be honest, I was too much thrilled about the conversation subject and I didn’t think clearly.

    • Barry says:

      So what is the Bray family histrory then?

      • John Owens says:

        I know very little about the Bray family ( my Irish side): Like all other Irish people, they emigrated to America and I don’t know when. But one of my later Irish ancestors went westward in America which I don’t have clue why and he did have contact with the American indigenous tribe( Don’t know the name) in California before becoming a state in the U.S. Then he must have good relations with the American Indigneous tribe and fell in love with my American indigenous ancestor who is the daughter of the tribe leader. This much I can say, but I don’t know the whole story.

      • Barry says:

        John, I know a Bray family that is English!! So although they might be originally Irish ie the name make sure you know where exactly they came from as they might have come from England!!

      • Geordie Mike says:

        southern England in 1880. Most in Cornwall then Devon

  24. J. Burke Hodgerson says:

    John you remind me of my dear wife. She doesn’t know a thing about her family background. She will say quote ” I think I am probably English or Scottish or some Irish or something like that. She will go on guessing and saying stuff like quote ” I think I may be native American as well and some Mexican here and there”. Most of this things are just guesses. Thats how ignorant most British Americans are about their own family histories. I will only give you her last name as i would think you would know her family origins by surname. Her family name is Bowes Watson on the father’s side and her maternal last name is Haversham.

    Let me introduce myself too; I am an Anglo American like you john. I now live in Texas but my family tree has its origins in Maryland, New England. My family has a long history in America like most Anglo Americans in this country too. I can trace my family roots in America to the early 1700s and i can also trace my family’s point of departure in the old world to Bristol. Yes i have an urge to come to england someday to search for my family origins as well. Barry i like much of what you are saying and its very educating indeed. Contrary to the stereo typing of Anglo Americans as right wingers, I am a liberal and i come from a very democratic family. Being a liberal American does not stop me from being a proud English American. I am proud of my roots, my family contribution to building of the nation that is America today. Having English roots has made me more American than i would have been if i can from a hyphenated group. The English left to America to be Americans and never looked back. Demographers here call ENGLISH AMERICANS the invisible majority of America. John i would advise you to look up you family history my friend. Do it for you and your children.

    • Barry says:

      Thanks Mr Burke Hodgerson, I find it irritating that the country which help found one of the greatest nations on earth is so much in the back of Americans minds especially when they are related to the people that founded the country!! I would have thought many Americans would have shouted it from the rooftops, I am not being funny Americans are renowend for telling the world what they are good at so I find it unbelieveable none of them are creating groups called ‘founding fathers’ or ‘consitution makers’ or something like that for them to laud it over the rest of America telling them in no uncertain terms ‘if it was not for us you would not exist..so there’ or words similar.

      It maybe that my Anglo-American cousins have the very British nay English trait of not shouting about oneself but of just being hence why the other groups (Irish/Scottish/Hispanics/Africans) all do the opposite and are noticed and recognised in America because doing that is seen as an American thing to not shout and scream and demonstrate about yourself or an injustice is very non American or at the very least not excercising your constitutional rights in the wider American society so basically you are ignored.

      All of you have a duty to your forefathers to make their voices heard. I say celebrate St George’s Day, Bonfire Night, Trafalgar Day, Pancake Day and any other days we celebrate in England that you do not in America, after all look at the irish with their bars and St Patricks Day, do the same set up an English pub and use the profits to celebrate all that is English/British, then and only then will your voices and those of your ancestors be heard.

      No one is going to do this for you, by all means write to your local councillor/ representative in the house demand more recognition and write to your local papers and media, use history to demand your rights, make them feel guilty about not doing it all before and about allowing more recent arrivals to your shores to be the focus of everything America is about, do nothing and nothing will happen.

      Set up a website and start asking the people of America are you British then register here and go from there, you are the biggest group in America and you should in reality be top of the tree, your not because you have been ignored because you have allowed it to happen.

      You will not be able to do this alone recruit as many people as you can, your voice deserves to be heard as much as anyone else’s so excercise the right your ancestors fought for.

      Good luck, with it all and any help or guidance then shout we are right behind you.

      Have you been to the English Democrats website they will help you with this as well as many of our own English organisations, just ask and i can send you their contact details.

      Thanks for the kind comment by the way. I am just a passionate Englishman.

    • John Owens says:

      Mr. Hodgerson, I do not know the surname origin of Watson and if I had to guess, my best guess is it is either of Welsh origin or English origin.

      • Geordie Mike says:

        That’s mostly a Northern English name in the 1880’s but with a lot in Scotland.They may have emigrated to Northern Ireland I suppose to be identified as Scots/Irish. Most come from around Cumberland, Durham, Yorkshire in England, and Kirkcaldy in Scotland.

    • Archie Thomson says:

      This is the most sensible thing ive read on this forum! An American who genuinly seems at peace with his English roots!

      I visited New England on holiday (vacation!) with some friends in 98; i was astounded how very much at home i felt, the countryside, weather, geography, place names, towns, people… How on earth can modern day Americans blatantly deny and discriminate against what is blindingly obvious; you are as much a part of us as we are of you! Even your flag is loosely based around ours with the founding states, colours (colors!) etc. to me it is a real shame, America always seems at odds with its identity, like an adopted child constantly searching for its parents only to deny them once found. Like it or not, we from all the British Isle, are your parents and regardless of the struggle for Independence, without that struggle, you wouldnt achieve all that you had. That sense of hard earned freedom coupled with true British sense of right, wrong, sense and sensibility, made you what you are. My father was a true Scot from Perth, my mother an English rose from Cheshire. Together they made me, i owe my looks and intellect definitly to my mother, i owe my strength, grit and determination to my father. I celebrate both St Andrew and Burns night, and i celebrate St Georges and Guy Fawkes! America and Britain go hand in hand. Wether we like it or not, we are all a product of our history. We should celebrate what and what we are, not what we are not 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

      • Archie but how do we instill a sense of pride in those Americans who are British , I sense some want to hide it due to the war…I persoanlly would be as proud as punch to be born in US but have British roots..my flag would fly and I would celebrate all those English traditions..would be awesome..(a yank would say awesome:))

      • Doughty says:

        Hey mpbaz115
        You’ll be happy to know that because of the my recent paper I was able to inform my entire class about our underlying Anglo culture here in America. An Italian American girl was extremely surprised by this and argued for the melting pot analogy, but with some persuading she is now convinced as well as the other 40 students in my class.

        “Families on either side of the Border had a lot in common regardless of whether they were Scots or English. They both had to survive in this hostile environment. This made the Border people a very tough people and a very insular people.” The Graham clan was known particularly for reiving on both sides of the border. King James was sick of their lawless behavior that he forced them into northern Ireland before they immigrated to America.

        You should do a little reading about the Border Reivers. Here are some links:


      • How did the class take it? With regards Germans i recognise the part they played heck with a few more votes you would be speaking it…but your not and as they say the rest is history…however our influence i would argue is greater..just look at your state names to see that… your most famous city New York is named after a city in England.

      • Doughty says:

        “Thus, to sum up in a single sentence, the Anglo-Saxons have contributed about one-half the blood of Britain, or rather less; but they have contributed the whole framework of the language, and the whole social and political organisation; while, on the other hand, they have contributed hardly any of the civilisation, and none of the religion. We are now a mixed race, almost equally Celtic and Teutonic by descent; we speak a purely Teutonic language, with a large admixture of Latin roots in its vocabulary; we live under Teutonic institutions; we enjoy the fruits of a Graeco-Roman civilisation; and we possess a Christian Church, handed down to us directly through Roman sources from a Hebrew original. To the extent so indicated, and to that extent only, we may still be justly styled an Anglo-Saxon people.”

        Anglo Saxon Britain
        Historian Grant Allen

        This mix sounds a lot like our American history.

      • Doughty says:

        “How did the class take it? With regards Germans i recognise the part they played heck with a few more votes you would be speaking it…but your not and as they say the rest is history…however our influence i would argue is greater..just look at your state names to see that… your most famous city New York is named after a city in England.”

        The class took it well. Don’t forget the German towns.

        1. Anaheim, California
        2. Carlsbad, California
        3. Schaumburg, Illinois
        4. Germantown, Maryland*
        5. Frederick, Maryland
        6. Hoffman Estates, Illinois
        7. New Berlin, Wisconsin
        8. Germantown, Tennessee*
        9. Bremerton, Washington
        10. New Braunfels, Texas

        And Indian place names
        Alabama: may come from Choctaw meaning “thicket-clearers” or “vegetation-gatherers.”

        Alaska: corruption of Aleut word meaning “great land” or “that which the sea breaks against.”

        Arizona: from the Indian “Arizonac,” meaning “little spring” or “young spring.”

        Arkansas: from the Quapaw Indians.

        Chicago (Illinois): Algonquian for “garlic field.”

        Chesapeake (bay): Algonquian name of a village.

        Connecticut: from an Indian word (Quinnehtukqut) meaning “beside the long tidal river.”

        Illinois: Algonquin for “tribe of superior men.”

        Indiana: meaning “land of Indians.”

        Iowa: probably from an Indian word meaning “this is the place” or “the Beautiful Land.”

        Kansas: from a Sioux word meaning “people of the south wind.”

        Kentucky: from an Iroquoian word “Ken-tah-ten” meaning “land of tomorrow.”

        Massachusetts: from Massachusett tribe of Native Americans, meaning “at or about the great hill.”

        Michigan: from Indian word “Michigana” meaning “great or large lake.”

        Minnesota: from a Dakota Indian word meaning “sky-tinted water.”

        Mississippi (state and river): from an Indian word meaning “Father of Waters.”

        Malibu (California): believed to come from the Chumash Indians.

        Manhattan (New York): Algonquian, believed to mean “isolated thing in water.”

        Milwaukee (Wisconsin): Algonquian, believed to mean “a good spot or place.”

        Missouri: named after the Missouri Indian tribe. “Missouri” means “town of the large canoes.”

        Narragansett (Rhode Island): named after the Indian tribe.

        Nebraska: from an Oto Indian word meaning “flat water.”

        Niagara (falls): named after an Iroquoian town, “Ongiaahra.”

        North Dakota: from the Sioux tribe, meaning “allies.”

        Ohio: from an Iroquoian word meaning “great river.”

        Oklahoma: from two Choctaw Indian words meaning “red people.”

        Pensacola (Florida): Choctaw for “hair” and “people.”

        Roanoke (Virginia): Algonquian for “shell money” (Indian tribes often used shells that were made into beads called wampum, as money).

        Saratoga (New York): believed to be Mohawk for “springs (of water) from the hillside.”

        South Dakota: from the Sioux tribe, meaning “allies.”

        Sunapee (lake in New Hampshire): Pennacook for “rocky pond.”

        Tahoe (lake in California/Nevada): Washo for “big water.”

        Tennessee: of Cherokee origin; the exact meaning is unknown.

        Texas: from an Indian word meaning “friends.”

        Utah: from the Ute tribe, meaning “people of the mountains.”

        Wisconsin: French corruption of an Indian word whose meaning is disputed.

        Wyoming: from the Delaware Indian word, meaning “mountains and valleys alternating”; the same as the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania.

      • Now that is something i love to learn about why certain places are called what they are called i love that…and i love they used indian tribal names or words from their language..love that..I have read the English were more welcoming to the indians than other settlers…im sure you have heard about ranoake island and jamestown have your pupils though?

      • Archie Thomson says:

        Nobody can re write history, not even the Americans with their (forgive me) very biased education system which is very pro “after the revolution”. That is where a change needs to happen, sadly most Americans seem swamped in all that is great about America but without any appreciation for who made America great, we did! The British! The very foundations which their society is based on, is based upon ours! Many of the elite US universities were set up by Englishmen, towns, cities, states, laws even the grid formation of New York mirrored that of the Scottish city of Glasgow, the term Borough (Boro’gh), its all just a bit obvious dont you think? And then there is the language, the laws, peoples names… Ok, so we left them to their own devices after a revolution, but historically, they were English men and women, fighting English men and women! our culture is so intertwined with them, and them with us, its hard to seperate history sometimes and emotion! The Americans are still desperate to forge a unique identity, one that takes them away from their colonial past, its happening in Australia and India, in fact many of the former colonies are now striving to find themselves by going it alone, but life always comes full circle and one day many Americans will want questions answering, and many will come to Englands shores to find those andwers for themselves. England is a magnificent country which gave birth to other societies which mirrored its own. Its people travelled far and wide to spread its culture and influence. If people of those former colonies wish to deny their English roots, then thats their problem, it is them who miss out on being one of the greatest cultures in the history of the civilised world. We may have done bad things, but we sure as hell did a lot of good! You see that in the people of its former colonies like the US and in its people.

      • I think we think alike Archie agree with all you have said here..their must be a way to help our fellow English/British patriots in US..I have spoken to some but they are not sure on what to do..we must be able to help?

      • John Owens says:

        This English American blog is starting to slowly make progress and it is only a matter of time before more English Americans wake up to realise their undeniable heritage. I am at peace even since I recognise my English heritage. I don’t know much about it, but I’m eager to know more about the English history and the English people when I have more time. Interesting fact: I’m only member of the intermediate Owens family that has developed a British accent and my parents and my older brother find it irritating. My British accent isn’t that great, but I’m indirectly learning to fit it right.

      • Jez Walsh Patters says:

        Mr. Thomson as Americans we are proud of our English roots however privately it may be; however quietly it may appear. My name is Jez Patters originally form OHIO. I come from a family that has changed surnames like some peoples discard their shoes. I have traced my family roots to New England in particular Vermont. My forebear James French Harvey emigrated to this shores from England in the early 1700s. His son James Harvey the younger was actually born in England in 1692. His grandson the first American born changed his last name to Townsend. Peter Harvey Townsend left Vermont for Virginia when he was 15 and thats where he changed his last name. Townsend was in use until one of his grandson changed it to Wilkes. Thomas Welch Wilkes at one time lived in Philadelphia in the mid 1780s where he used to work as an ironsmith. It is not clear however what side they were on during the American war of independence but the Wilkes name survived until 1846 when one of his decadents changed it to Patterton. To be exact his name was James Harvey Patterton taking his mother’s name and just under a generation later shortened it to Patters until today.

        Now if you are an English American this is a bit confusing isn’t it. I went around to research my family surname dumping phenomenon and a meet a gentleman who is a history researcher in Kentucky. His name is A.J Laws and he specialized in early American history. He told me of a phenomenon i never came across in my American history lessons and he dubs it the castaways kids. He says During the early settlements in America most folks who came here were the very poor and sometimes sold off by their fellow countrymen as laborers in the new world. Forget about the Gentry settlers in Virginia who kept horses and vast amounts of land for the pleasure of it. Many were brought in to work as manual labors in farms and construction. Of course most were from the British Isles while some were from European mainland. England contributed a particularly high number of emigrants to the new world. The English unlike their fellow Brits, the Irish and the Scots were not clannish. They never identified themselves with their ethnicity. The sense of strife as an ethnic unit was never important to the English. For them the sense of community was derived from peculiar interests not ethnic identity. The consequence of this individualistic approach was that the English discarded their own as soon as an interest ends. If you were English you were really your own man and that explains how the English treated their own. If you were Irish you’d know that you identity may be the only important thing that fights for you because of the sense of kinship. The sense of ethnic and communal belonging was very week amongst the English descendants. . There were large number of orphans brought in from England which also made it tough for the English to huddle together. Even in the new Republic the sense of English elitism persisted among the ruling class and the wealthy. The English ways of Class distinctions were openly practiced by the new hierarchy. Grittiness, Robustness and Ingenuity was the the order of the day amongst the English of the lower class in the new America. A sense of individual strife for achievement was the call of the era. An ability to fight the odds and succeed was what set a real man apart. As the result people from early on fell into the idea of carving out their own individual identities and what better way than to change your last name. What is even more surprising is that they changed their own names to other English names. They never changed their names to Native American’s or Spanish or German but resorted to English names. This practice persisted to the late 1800s when none British emigrants took British names. Anyone remember KIRK Douglas’s real birth name? Am I a proud English American? YES. As for most folks, they just want to be JFK’s cousins after all. When an American goes to Ireland they treat him just like one of their own, even if you are merely a plastic paddy. Even Barack Obama can tell you that. As for the Brits many Americans will tell you, they just feel Alien.

      • Jez..Im a Harvey! On my mothers fathers side, my Mum and her sister were both born Harvey..Sally and Susan. I am wondering if you have a distant connection to those Harvey’s? We are from London/Surrey area..? I dont think the English feel alien in America after all you speak a type of English, your place names (well most of them) are either derived from English nobility or from English place names..even America is named after an Englishman..bet you didnt know that!!? The problem is the English are not very good at shouting about themselves..why?

        Well we let our actions speak for themselves, the other nations you mention had to shout about who they were(some more than others) as it was the only thing they had left..The English not only had their language to take pride in but their past times, rituals, their dress, the fact they actually run the colony..many only had their nation..hence why our pride in our country became lost in other things..besides many came to start again they were hardly going to shout about where they came from if it brought back bad memories they would probably want to forget where they came from and a name change was a good way to do it…many from other nations did not leave their nations on a bad note and were proud to say I am from xyz…it stood them apart for the rest , most of whom had come from England anyway..

      • Jez Walsh Patters says:

        Well Sir, we could be distant cousins but then again you could also be related to my mother in law. Her last name is Harvey, Maggie Harvey is her name. She married a Bailey but she never adopted her husband’s name. I always thought its a strange coincidence that i am descended from a Harvey and my mother in law is a Harvey. Another thing, when you trace your ancestry especially here in the US there is always a wall somewhere when you are looking it up. You either hit a dead end or you’ll get a place or country of origin with specifics unknown. For instance it will mention James French Harvey and say place of birth England, Town/ Village; Unknown. So you never get to know the exact places. To be precise i don’t know where in england he’s from. As for my mother in law it is a bit straight forward. Her paternal great-grandfather Wilbour Harvey was actually born in Montreal in Canada before moving to new england in the late 1800s. Wilbour’s parents were from England somewhere in Lincolnshire. The registry wrote; Peter Malcolm Harvey, born Lincolnshire England and then mentions a year 1861. Peter is Wilbour’s father. I checked out Lincolnshire and it is a county not a town and there we go again never specific.

        My Father in law claims he is scotch Irish and he has visited Ireland like 6 times; he even has some certificate or something of that order from the Baileys of Ireland. He likes wearing Shamrock t-shirts and the like and singing DANNY BOY. I guess the only thing he didn’t know was actually the song Danny Boy was composed by an Englishman. One day Mr. Bailey showed up at my place wearing a Danny Boy sweater with a big Shamrock at the back. I said to him, quote, YOU ARE PROBABLY MORE ENGLISH THAN THE QUEEN AND I AM NOT KIDDING. You know what, he swore that cannot be possible since his family fought the English for years in Ireland. As a matter of fact i was right, he was as English as Mitt Romney’s come in America . I checked up his family with my wife (his daughter) and trace his family line first from West Virginia and then in Boston Massachusetts . We were able through a British friend to trace his family roots to Cornwall and up to the city of York England. We even found that there was a Romney in his family line. Just like in my family line they have changed surnames about four times. His family once used a names like Atley, Carrington and Baker thru the years and discarded them as generations grow. I’ll tell this; my father in law just like most Americans, he is a true Irishman in spirit though by blood he may be something else. As for the English being alien; well there is prejudice i will tell you that. As much as people here in America wants to be family by association with Irishness there is this low level prejudice that the English are somewhat strange they use words like ‘queer’, boring and more. To get over these kinds of negative stereotyping may take some muscle and time.

      • I will say we are related…I will say this many , many Yanks, claim Irish ancestory, one reason is that its an easy thing to do and its fashionable, lets make being English and American the in thing to be, I am sick and tiered of my fellow Englishmen being sidelined by those who think being Irish is in some way better..how is it better? What did they give the US? Nothing as far as I can see..I am sure their is a way fellow Englishmen and women in the US could find out how they are related and in what place…you might need to use UK based births,deaths and marriages registers

      • Jez Walsh Patters says:

        From the onset of our independence there has been a feeling that we are a different people. I was reading a historical piece from a library which dates few years after the war of independence. It was clear to me how deeply the new nation resented the mother country. There was a line where it read ” No man amongst us shalt ever bow nor wilt reverence of any manner to a Britisher lest he himself is a traitor, there comes a time when a brother peats against brother… this is upon us.” And another line that ends ” a true Englishman resents the American and this people, this nation and generations forth shall return it likewise in equal measure fold.” Of course this was translated to fit the English of our time but it was clear that the bitterness then ran deep.

        There is another school of thought that the English did not come here with any memorable personalized storyline. This is because as new immigrants came in the mid to late 1800s the had a story to tell, something to leave for their decedents. For the Irish the potato famine and the hatred of a crazy king George. For other Europeans there were so many personal details about their individual struggles and what the new country meant. This was the beginning of a new meaning of was to be ” a nation of immigrants”. Whereas before we were of settlers in pursuit of justice and religious freedoms now we were starting to define ourselves with a much broader distinction as a nation of many nations. Yes we can argue that the English colonist wanted liberty, freedom of religion and non state sponsored faith that was forced down their respectable throats but they (the English) lacked a personal narrative. Given the fact that there has never been a sense of ethnic cohesion amongst the English and so called Scotch Irish until in recent time as far as the Scotch Irish are concerned has actually made the founding groups less visible in modern American society. Lets also bear in mind that the scotch Irish are themselves descended mostly from the northern English but would rather identify with a more popular choice of being considered Irish. In 2000 census about 51% of those who claimed Irishness were protestants. You can compare that against the face of American Irishness which is predominantly Catholic. Another study contents that more than 56% have more prominent ancestries than Irish. Almost 69% are descended from British settlers pre- 1920 Irish independence. So definitively most people who claim Irishness are in fact more British than they can ever bear to admit. Also notice this: Six of the ten most common surnames are British and the first for are English. Since Independence with the exception of about two presidents almost all have British ancestry and it is mostly English. Even the presidential contenders are almost overwhelmingly of British extraction. If indeed the British and in particular the English were a minority as the 2000 census suggest that should not be possible in a mature democratic society. One slight flicker of hope is that even though most of us choose to ignore our Englishness we are still proud to be descended from the mayflower. We still subconsciously think that there are aspects of English ancestry that is still charmmy enough to hang on to. There is a story that ran for sometime in the past that when President Bush Sr. was told by a reporter, that his ancestor was from Sussex England he was bemused and disappointed but then weeks later when another reporter told him that he had an ancestor in the Mayflower he smiled and shed a tear. Thats how some Americans are proud of a mayflower heritage. The fact is, most Americans are not descended from the Mayflower but most would jump for joy if you say they did. So how about making Mayflower a call-sign for the English American cause?

      • We could look to call it the mayflower pilgrims…so we ask are you a mayflower pilgrim? That will have some resonance dont you think

      • John William Owens (Silver Dragon) says:

        I was told by Prof. James Sled (ELCT 69), my instructor at VVC that a certain website called ancestry.com can provide answers to who my ancestors were or are and I don’t have time to put forth time into this option for the time being. However, it has never left my mind at all and in relation to the subject at hand, I might be related to other present day English cousins or present day English American cousins. Or I could be related to Mr. Thomson, or Mpbaz7115 (Barry).

    • Geordie Mike says:

      Can’t find a Hodgerson in the listings only Hodgeson Most listings in Cleveland an area in NE England

  25. John Owens says:

    Barry, my grandmother did tell me I was of English descent and they were nobles by title and inheritance. My last name is of Welsh origin, but I’m confused whether or not it counts as English blood. I had clear up any confusions or misunderstandings with a few of my comments when it crossed my mind.

    • John Owens says:

      One detail I left out, I’m not sure my English ancestors were protestant or Catholic due to my limited knowledge in this interest. I didn’t ask my grandmother about this so it is my loss.

      • John Owens says:

        Just to clear up the Owens origin coming from the Welsh. Owens is not an English name, but a Welsh name. So I do not know about how much my Welsh ancestry is important. If there is anyone who would want talk about this, I don’t mind discussing this minor subject.

      • Barry says:

        John, again Owens may well be Welsh in origin but many Welsh and Scottish people live and work in England and therefore many of their children are born in England despite their celtic heritage and therefore they are English but with a welsh name.

    • Wikipedia has a humungous list of celebrity and political/influential Americans with direct English ancestry, it is vast!! As it would be! For decades the largest group of settlers to the America’s were from the British Isles and most notably England! It just is not possible that Germans ever out numbered English/British settlers, before or even after the revolution, its elitist snobbery and a modern day sham. Like i mentioned before, it is worrying that many Americans would deny their English ancestry in favour of a race which did more to harm the global population on two seperate occasions! Germans may be a placid democratic race now, but that was not always the case! Americans are quick to point the finger at the English yet forget that only 70 years ago, Germans were killing inocent people on a scale never seen before or since! The British granted America independence after it fought its way to peace, but lets not forget who founded that nation from the point of pilgrim arrival to the founding of its original 13 states; they were English men and women who rather than aborting English culture and laws, embraced them, elaborated on them which would eventually enable them to develop a modern day society which reflected that of its ancestral forefathers. The UK and the US are like mother and daughter in my eyes. They reflect the developing relationship and struggle between the two. Eventually a dependent child turns into a angst ridden teenager and in turn a mature free thinking, self governing adult, the struggle to break free and become independent is not always easy but eventually we all learn to stand on our own two feet, no matter how hard the parent tries to hold on to the eternal child, in the end they do grow up and mature… But the adult should never forget his roots, no matter how difficult the separation.

  26. John Owens says:

    Barry, I am of Korean descent if your confused about this detail. My mother was born in South Korea as a citizen of this country and I can explain later about how she became an American citizen eventually. It’s a long story I can shortly brief from beginning to end. Part of the long story involves how my mother met my father.

  27. John Owens says:

    I thought Bray was an Irish name originally, but I don’t know the whole story.

    • Barry says:

      John it may have been but your actual relations could have come from England to start a new life not Ireland…you need to look into it as you may have more English in you than you think!!

      • John Owens says:

        That is very interesting and I bet my English ancestry must have widespread influence in the English world sphere even today.

      • Barry says:

        I do know Bray is a fairly widley used name as is Owens in England so yes even today they are around!!!

  28. The Bray mentioned here is from the English county of Berkshire. It is an 18th century satirical song.

    In good King Charles’s golden days,
    When Loyalty no harm meant;
    A Zealous High-Church man I was,1
    And so I gain’d Preferment.2
    Unto my Flock I daily Preach’d,
    Kings are by God appointed,
    And Damn’d are those who dare resist,
    Or touch the Lord’s Anointed.3

    And this is law,4 I will maintain
    Unto my Dying Day, Sir.
    That whatsoever King may reign,
    I will be the Vicar of Bray, Sir!

    When Royal James possest the crown,
    And popery5 grew in fashion;
    The Penal Law I shouted down,
    And read the Declaration:
    The Church of Rome I found would fit
    Full well my Constitution,
    And I had been a Jesuit,6
    But for the Revolution.7

    And this is Law, &c.

    When William our Deliverer came,
    To heal the Nation’s Grievance,
    I turn’d the Cat in Pan8 again,
    And swore to him Allegiance:
    Old Principles I did revoke,
    Set conscience at a distance,
    Passive Obedience is a Joke,
    A Jest is9 non-resistance.

    And this is Law, &c.

    When Royal Ann became our Queen,
    Then Church of England’s Glory,
    Another face of things was seen,
    And I became a Tory:10
    Occasional Conformists base
    I Damn’d, and Moderation,
    And thought the Church in danger was,
    From such Prevarication.

    And this is Law, &c.

    When George in Pudding time11 came o’er,
    And Moderate Men looked big, Sir,
    My Principles I chang’d once more,
    And so became a Whig, Sir.12
    And thus Preferment I procur’d,
    From our Faith’s great Defender13
    And almost every day abjur’d
    The Pope, and the Pretender.

    And this is Law, &c.

    The Illustrious House of Hannover,14
    And Protestant succession,
    To these I lustily will swear,
    Whilst they can keep possession:
    For in my Faith, and Loyalty,
    I never once will faulter,
    But George, my lawful king shall be,
    Except the Times shou’d alter.

    And this is Law, &c.

    • John Owens says:

      The Brays must have played a very important role in the history of England based on my understanding of the satrical song. I want add that the Owens surname is not English, but Welsh. Now since I said this, I hope I did not interfere with the subject at hand about the Brays and how they played their role during the changing times.

  29. John Owens says:

    Barry, I am impressed with your response to my comment about the Owens surname and my response is to this. The Owens surname is no doubt Welsh, but I agree Owens is now a English name in modern times. However, do any Owens’s still have influence in Wales? You can disregard about my Korean background since it is not important in this conversation.

    • Paul Archer says:

      Your Owen probably comes from an anglised form of Owain but could come from Eoghan an Irish equivalent (Christian name).Owain ap Gruffydd means Owain (son of) Gruffydd.The anglised version would be Owen Griffiths.Gruffydd ap Owain would be Gruffydd (son of) Owain.Anglised version would be Griffith Owen (or may be Owens) etc.
      Owen / Owens is quite a popular name in Wales & fairly popular in England.Parts of Scotland & Cumbria / Lancashire etc. (i.e. Strathclyde – Ystrad Clud) spoke Cumbric.Cumbric is similar to Old Welsh & used a similar way of naming people.Owen could have descended from that part of the UK as well.
      Griffith Park (Hollywood) was named after a Welshman Griffith J. Griffith ; ), thought I’d mention that since you are from California.

  30. John Owens says:

    Barry, I’m glad these website brought me here and others as well who have the same interest. This website in my opinion is creating the roots of a movement in the future for us English americans whether the last names originated from Yorkshire, Wales and every other location in England. I did not intentionally want to interfere with my other subject matter since I brought this up.

  31. Peter Beacham says:

    Very good read. My personal opinion is that there is too much rivalry between the U.S and Britain therefore ties are not as close as they should be!

  32. Barry says:

    John, Mr Hodgerson and Peter(if you live in the US) it is up to you to go on twitter/facebook and local websites spreading the word about English America. Send all your relatives links to this blog and let them know what you have found out ask them do they want to help, email universities asking for their help direct the email at the history dept. Write to your government representative and state representative dont rest until you have at least had a hearing…let me know how you get on!

    • John Owens says:

      Barry, I want to add that I live in the state of California, USA just to let you know. But thank you for the encouragement.

  33. Doughty says:

    I am so glad I’ve found this blog. My dad’s family (Doty/Doughty) came to America on the mayflower in 1620. My mom’s family (Graham) were lowland Scots from the Scottish border. They were border Reivers and were culturally closer to the English than the highlanders. Both families were Anglo Saxon, protestant, and fought in every single American war. I even have Norman ancestry that goes back to William the conqueror. That’s probably not technically English though. I’m very proud of my ancestors achievements and my Anglo Saxon roots.

    I agree 100% with this article as well, America is definitely an extension of Anglo Saxon culture. Many Americans are either too ignorant to see it, or are too unwilling to admit it. Even when they have an English last name they still try to claim there Irish-ness or some other ethnicity. I think that the Anglo Americans that identify as just American, and nothing else, is because they don’t really find the need to identify with another group other than Anglo Saxon. Like you said in your article our families were the settlers not the immigrants, so there is really no need to shout it from the roof tops. But with the massive wave of Mexicans in America, I think it’s about time we start doing just that.

    PS I would love to visit England and Scotland someday soon. It is a shame that England has had so many recent immigrants though. I better hurry up and visit before all the Muslims take over. Muhammad is now the number 1 name in Birmingham; or so I’ve heard. 😦

    • Barry says:

      Doughty, you are right about parts of this fair isle, this England, it does have areas that are dominated by certain groups now, best not visit those areas they do not represent the real England, the countryside does and places like stonehenge etc. Your name in appearance does have a celtic/irish ring about it.

      Yes you should now start shouting about it afterall its your ancestors who founded the place the recent immigrants have come on a wave of making money that was not why our original ancestors went to the new world well not the only reason, the immigrants in America are riding on the the back of the saxons especially the hispanics being so recent settlers so when they have their own shops and music stations etc start campaigning for your own!! If its good for the goose its good for the gander!!

      Contact the English Democrats who can give you links to groups that will help you.

      • Doughty says:

        Thanks Barry, I’ll probably visit this summer actually. I’ll try to spend as little time as possible in London as I can. The rest of the time will be spent in the north, probably Nottingham (technically a midland county) Yorkshire, and Northumberland. I know that Doughty is not a well known name in England, but it has been in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire since before 1066. It’s definitely NOT celtic, and is in no way related to the Irish Daugherty clan. It comes from the Anglo Saxon/Danish word Dohtig which means brave or valiant.

        Are there any places or cities in the north that you would recommend? Somewhere with the least amount of immigrants. What is your opinion of York or Newcastle?

        Thanks again

      • Barry says:

        Doughty York is an excellent choice but the north is not the only place left untouched by our recent invaisions. Many places in the south out price recent arrivals so therefore are untouched by them. Please do visit Bath in Somerset and also Cornwall is a must as well as Wiltshire with stonehenge Avebury, Salisbury and other historic cities. Glastonbury also I would only visit London for the architecture which is superb. If you are up north then you must go to hadrians wall!!

        Please sasy hello when you arrive I will be sure to recepricate and welcome you home.

    • The British Isles has been a hotbed of immigration since that period when the ice sheet melted and neanderthals started roaming the south downs! Many believe celts to be the original setlers of the British Isle which in part is true, 3 waves of Celtic peoples hit Britain, the first from Northern Spain and the latter from an area which is now known as Bulgaria. They spread to form seperate tribes all over Britain and eventually into Ireland. Some would outlast or interbreed with the next wave of immigrants, the Romans and after them the next wave of Anglo Saxons invaders from Holland, Denmark and Germany. Jutes, Angles, would then fall fowl of the Vikings who continued to raid and settle British shores for hundreds of years until the Normans from France (themselves of Viking descent!) would end the continual onslaught of people moving to the fertile lands in the west… Britain today is probably one of the most ethnic diverse countries in the world mainly due to its rich land and resources. Thats what drew millions her over thousands of years; nowhere else in the world has a population with DNA so rich in culture, heritage or in DNA itself! And THAT DNA is what the modern day British took with them around the world, to set seed in new lands like America, Australia, Canada and in Africa. Each British person and Anglo American, is made up of hundreds of different ethnicities and cultures spanning thousands of years, go past the colour, its whats in the genetic makeup!

      Britain like America is now seeing further biological and cultural diversity with migration from Asian and African countries, in many cases adding to the gene pool. Its nothing new, its whats been going on for thousands of years!

    • Geordie Mike says:

      I’m descended from Border Reivers on the English side of the border, nice to hear an American with some knowledge of the Reivers.
      Weren’t the Grahams banished to Ireland? and later sneaked back into Yorkshire with a new spelling of their name? I can’t find it on the internet again. I read recently that the name Graham is derived from the town of Grantham in Lincolnshire. Don’t know if it’s true.

  34. John Owens says:

    I have been currently study my weakest subject area called Math recently and I haven’t started putting my efforts to speak my voice in the state of California, USA due to personal difficulties in my immediate family in the meantime. I’ve got an idea in mind about spreading the word about English americans and the ideal is form a Facebook group page, but I would rather hear what you have to say about this.

  35. Barry says:

    Brilliant Idea John, go for it the best way to get it started is FB or tweet to all your friends in the US but brilliant idea

  36. John Owens says:

    In order to create a Facebook group page, I must have a friend on my friend’s list to complete the process. So far, none of my friends have an interest in English Americans.

    • John Owens says:

      Barry, you can create a facebookpage without having a friend to invite to an interest and I found out 30 minutes ago. I don’t have alot of time on my hands so if you have a facebook account and create a community page about English Americans in your spare time. I only ask of you to do this because I do not enough experience and you have connections to the English Democrats. I do understand should you say no.

    • Barry says:

      John, is their not anybody on here you can invite who is from the US?

  37. John Owens says:

    I haven’t started the progess of creating a Facebook group page and I do have my doubts that any of my friends wouldn’t be interested in the English American community. I can create a group page next week, but I do not have experience and I would need some help with this. There are people on the internet site called youtube already started way before I was interested about English Americans and there is a wikipage on facebook about English Americans that I have already liked. I was thinking should you agree to partnership on facebook on create a English American community page as an idea, then the chances of success are unknown.

  38. John Owens says:

    Actually, I started an incomplete community page on facebook about English Americans earlier than I expected and next week I seriously need help with presenting background information in the info section from you Barry. Here is my email address SongYohan_215@msn.com and I will wait for a message in return. Let me be clear about my friends on facebook, I doubt they are not interested in the English American community and I’m the only one who is trying something I have never have accomplished. I do not have enough time on my hands to accomplish my English American interest and I cannot do this alone. You can send a friend request on facebook if you want to, but I prefer this website or email correspondence for help or advice.

  39. Tobbs Jamison says:

    I am very happy that this blog is gaining some strength. My niece was in England for Christmas and she wanted to learn more about england and her history. She was telling me she visited Hull and Newcastle and much of the north-eastern borderlands of england and south-eastern Scotland. I feel very happy that young people like her are interested in their heritage. John Owens i think what you are doing sounds great. Do not despair, do not allow yourself to be frustrated and disillusioned. Keep going. Persist and persevere son. A very great advantage our english ancestors had when they settled America was the undying spirit. They were hardy, they were focused and they were determined. John invoke your english spirit son. Recently i have been talking about this blog to members of the several families that i knew back in Kansas. These families (without mentioning first names of individuals) were the Forresters, Ahearns, Bowmans, Wheatlers and the Comptons. We touched a lot of areas about origins of America and the heritage of America. By the way the Forresters and the Ahearns are Catholics but they all were really talking proudly about their english heritage. They are asking the same questions why are Americans not that proud of their english beginnings.

    Mr. Ahearn’s son was in China last year and students there were talking about China’s relationship with Taiwan. The theme was most Taiwanese regard themselves as Chinese even though some may want independence. One of the Chinese students said to Ahearn quote “why do you guys acknowledge the braveness of your founding fathers but at the same time denounce the very roots of your founders .” The student went on to say quote ” Most Americans we think have english roots but would rather be Irish or something else.” You know Ahearn was very surprised by the statement from the Chinese student. He thought to himself that may be much of the world is looking at America and can pretty much see that America is in denial of itself. They can see that when what is much of America today immigrated to America; America had already an established culture which was Anglo-Saxon. How could if you are a genuine demographer believe that a founding group that was in the overwhelming majority then is now so small its next to invisibility. That is hard to believe. By the way we have been talking about encouraging our kids and grandkids to visit the UK this year and it will be a cultural tour of some sort. looking forward to it.

    John as Barry says Bray is an English name. Just to add there are many English folks who settled in America whose families at the time lived in Ireland. The famous example would be President Andrew Jackson’s family. I know that many Irish Americans may try to refute it since they have claimed him as their own. If you were to ask any of the folks then about what they considered themselves they would have proudly proclaimed they were english. Andrew Jackson came from a protestant English family with settled in Ireland. I pretty much doubt if you were to ask Andy Jackson’s grandpa if he were Irish he would have agreed. English is what they considered themselves and the native Irish never considered them as one of their kind either. Look at the Scotch-Irish when they left for the Americas they never considered themselves Irish they were always British. But look how we group them today as Irish of course. What does that say?

    • John Owens says:

      You are correct in what you have said in your comment and you have to consider that I am a Welsh American as well as English American. You should check out my very own created English American facebook community page and use your influence to help me in my quest to raise awareness. American’s basis of culture in general are from the English and overtime English Americans before us decide to make bad decisions which leads to the America we have today. Benjamin Franklin had a quote about English Americans and I read it once on the internet, however I do not remember what he said.

  40. John Owens says:

    This is a seperate reply comment and I announce a facebookpage created by me about English Americans is active. Beware, there are at least 1 facebook page about English Americans using wikipedia as a source and I need your support. I really like to see at least many likes I can rally from English American brothers and sisters. Please like English American wikipedia facebook page when you can.

    • Barry says:

      Im not on facebook try setting up a wordpress blog and i will put a link to it on twitter!! Will your mum help john?

  41. John Owens says:

    A thought crossed my mind if it wasn’t for Mr. Robert Henderson creating this article, then us English Americans would remain unaware of our English heritage. I’m not surprised an Englishman had to awaken the long lost English spirit in English Americans and that is what happened last year or most recently.

  42. John Owens says:

    Thank you, Mr. Henderson for creating blog and uniting English Americans and English in our common blood and interest.

  43. John Owens says:

    I’ve created a facebook page for English Americans and I recommend you check it out. Don’t forget to like my English American page.

  44. Scarlet poet says:

    Anglo-Saxon does not mean English. the English were mostly Anglicised Britons, apart from places like east Anglia where there was a large migration.
    nobody calls French-Canadians Frankish Canadians or Gaulish Canadians, they simply French Canadians. the use of the term Anglo-Saxon in the american context only emerged in the 19th century romanticists. if you would have asked Shakespeare what he was he would have simply replied English.
    Celtic is not a race either it is another absurd 19th centuary contsrct. the truth is the avereage Scotsman an Welshman have more genetically in common with the English than with Celtic Bretons or even the Irish.

    Click to access YCAPELLI2003.pdf


    Here in England the English have been robbed of their ethnicity and have been told they are merely ‘White’ and such absurd notions as Black British and Black Asian have been created by the government and media., implying that the English don’t even exist as an ethnic group and never have done. Soon the English will be a minority in their own land due to post colonial guilt and mass migration.

    • John Owens says:

      It’s a shame that is occuring right now and the English worldwide who currently reside in America, Australia and New Zealand are now in a state of degration. I say now is the time for all English regardless where your from America, Australia and New Zealand must save the minority who have existed for more than 2,00 years and must stand strong. However, I’m not strong enough to carry on the fight and therefore need help. I live in the state of California,USA where the majority are Mexicans and I fear for any political backlash here should I write and send a letter to my state representative. My fear mentioned here is the one reason I haven’t send a letter at all and I instead created a fackbook page called English American.

      • John Owens says:

        Let me be specific, the U.S.A. is mixture of multiple cultures around the world and my state representive could be a bastard who denies his English heritage or a Mexican American.

    • Tobbs Jamison says:

      Scarlet what you are saying is definitely true about ethnic myths. As for me i did not know that the term Anglo-Saxon was actually recent. If you live here in America you would realize how ethnic identity myths are taken so seriously. Back when i was a young boy our parents in Kansas where we grew up would openly confess their Anglo-Saxon heritage. There were times when even politicians would actually say America is an Anglo-Saxon country. In my father’s times in the 50s most north-easterners openly referred to southern whites attitudes as white Anglo-Saxon bigotry. You can see then that America was a country that reveled in the pride of being an Anglo Saxon country.

      Of course mistakes were made from the onset of American nationhood. We never pursuit the meaning of our own creed that “every man was created equal.” We enslaved, dehumanized, violated and discriminated against our own. African Americans bore the wrath of these violations. But because we were a nation founded on principles not on hyphenated clannical identities many of our forebears fought against this violations based on principles. Turning to British Americans; British ancestry is one of the most fluid in all America. Most Americans seem to know who and what they are but not so with British Americans. Today one is Irish, another time he was English and tomorrow may be Scot or Welsh. Why is the ethnic identity so weak amongst British Americans. Despite the myth that only the English identity in America is in crisis, the Scottish American identity is faring far worse. Very few people claim Scottish roots and yet both the Scots and the English were the founding British groups. To put it simple when i was a young boy back in Kansas every Mac- in town was probably assumed to be Scottish. Now i don’t know if you have noticed it, that every Mac- in any town across America nowadays is in fact Irish. What has gone wrong with that once proud heritage.

      The irony of this identity flip-flop is that most Irish Americans are protestants and thats not the idea you get from the St Patrick’s day marches. This marches portrays a white catholic Irish identity. British Americans change loyalties like water assuming the shape of a container is poured in. Remember this, in the early days of the settlements and just after independence most immigrants were still white British protestants from the British mainland. Roughly about 30% of Scots who settled in America’s early days were Catholics and there were English catholics although they were far fewer. Now according to the 2000 census if you look at the religious identities of the people who claim either English or Scottish ancestry the percentage of catholics is negligible. Where has the descendants of both Scots and english catholics gone? Both English and Scottish identity has suffered a massive undercount. There was also a study that i read back in 2000 that most protestants who claim Irishness knew very little about their family history much the same as people who claimed just American identity.

      Coming to the false notion of solid ethnic identity, I would agree with you scarlet that much of the emphasis on distinctiveness of the people’s ancestry who came from the same islands is nonsense. English, Irish, Welsh and Scots are probably the same people as far as origins are concerned. Anglo-Saxon this and Celtic that may be only
      nationalistic myth trying to draw distinctions. Other other hand we must also admit that a sense of separate national identity is real. Yes the Celtic mantra is neither the sole claim of the Irish as they flaunt it, Scots nor the Welsh its British. All the people of the British Isles have common roots; after all they have coexisted together for years.

      • DNA test the lot, its the only true way to find someones genetic place. I had it done here in the UK as part of a recent study at the University of Manchester; despite my name being of Scottish Lineage Archie Thomson, my genetic make up is almost 50% scandinavian, 40% Roma and 10% Anglo-Saxon!

        Thats because nearly ALL the people of Britain are in fact a genetic result of mass immigration and invasion from all over Europe and north Africa! The people who many believe are the true Brits (gaelic or celtic folk) were indeed themselves immigrants to these shores from northern Spain and Southern Germany/Western Bulgaria! Many true Welsh folk have a striking resemblance to their Spanish ancestors, the Celts who settled Southern Wales, Cornwall and Devon thousands of years before the Romans. Due to the wild geography of Wales it is indeed the only place in Britain where ‘thoroughbred’ Celts can still be found, or those with the closest genetic links to the ancient Britons! They share 99% of their DNA with Spaniards found in the norther part of Spain and Western parts of France, Brittany!

      • Geordie Mike says:

        There is a difference though! Border Scots are different people than highlanders without a doubt. Yorkshire men are completely different in character than people from Devon or Wales, more spontaneous and much less careful. The further west you go in England the smaller the Police become.

        People from NE England are different than Cumbrians.You can see distinct faces that are common in Cumbria.and Glasgow (Taggart, Ronnie Corbett) but not often seen in Newcastle.
        Cumbria and SW Scotland used to be one British Kingdom like Wales.(Cymry) . Cumbria is 57% English compared to NE England 77%.

        People spoke English in Edinburgh before they spoke English in Leeds in Yorkshire, The Firth of forth was known as the Frisian sea. Frisian is the closest language to English.

        Scotland is made up of three different peoples. British Strathclyde, formerly centred around Glasgow and Cumbria.
        The Scots in the North from Ireland. and the Angles who settled around Edinburgh and the whole length of the Scottish borders, and who probably were reinforced by the Angles and Danes, (who were the same people, just arriving at different periods) That’s how they all learned to speak English! And that’s what makes them appear the same in such a small Island.

    • Mike says:

      Stephen Oppenheimer again! How is this charlatan allowed to get away with this “The English were mostly Anglicised Britons” nonsense?
      Why does he persist in denying our racial heritage? What’s it all about? Political?

      It’s still very obvious where the different races settled in the UK by the appearance and character of the people (and the place names) graves achaelogical digs etc, Did these “Anglicised” Britons decide to change all the Celtic place names, hills, rivers and valleys etc in to English also, just to show how Anglicised they had become?
      It definitely gets more Celtic the further west you go, both in England and Scotland but even in eastern England it’s been shown by previous studies that the people are more germanic than Celtic.

  45. John Owens says:

    The post above is my admission of not enough effort on my part and my duty. Next week, I am going to contact my state representative and I will not fail in my duty to represent the English minority. That I will promise. For the English people!! A new generation of English descendants shall rise.

    • barry says:

      You go John the laws you live under are English laws make them aware of it when they try and deny you your rights!

  46. Scarlet poet says:

    How about having a St Georges day parade in America like the Irish have St Paddy’s day aka ‘every wants to be Irish, isn’t just so cool day’ Even in England St Paddy’s Day is more popular than St Georges day.

    Here is some real English culture:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTazCqcD7Ls

    Here are some of my favourite English-Americans the Skillet Lickers.

    It is now illegal to fly St Georges cross in certain places due to the fact it may offend immigrants.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/04/britain.redcross/index.html – Prison guard asked to remove St Georges cross coz it might be racist.

    And this is how immigrants are encouraged to display their own national symbols and climb on buses and block the road to enrich our culture…http://www.youtube.com/watch?

    England is dieing our culture, our ancient, our way of life, we are told by the media and government that diversity IS English culture itself.

    Here the Wiltshire times says:
    ‘MULTICULTURALISM is what Swindon is all about’
    one of the BBC’s mission statements
    .’We respect each other and celebrate our DIVERSITY so that everyone can give their best.’



    • Barry says:

      Poet I fly my flag when and where ever I want I would rather die than remove it for anyone if they want it down they are going to have to arrst me first I will not remove it.

    • Barry says:

      Poet I am in the process of dealing with Mr Doyle ref the Prison tie pin debarcle he wont make that mistake again not if he wants to end up in court!

  47. John Owens says:

    Scarely Poet, you can show off your English pride by drawing St. George’s Cross on a 3X5 Card and attach it in the back window of your vehicle. Most recently, I’ve drawn St. George’s Cross and attach it to the inside of the back vehicle window. I’ve felt so proud of my English heritage afterwards reciting the words “St. George is for the English” twice.

    • Barry says:

      The point is do not let people tell you your flag is wrong or you are wrong its your flag and your country and everyones allowed to be proud of their own country and flag the minute you stop one country for a potentially racist reason you actually let the racists win most people from other countries want to see our flag if not why did you come here?

      Its the far left that pander to the PC brigade in case it offends, it offends nobody by making an issue of it it actually offends me, so what about my culture and sensitivities whats good for all is good for one . By denying me my right to fly my flag you are actually in danger of committing a race crime so please the PC brigade of England please try and stop me flying my flag and see what happens.

      • John Owens says:

        Barry, my plans to contact a politician from the California Legislature in the USA has been derailed literally due to my responsibility to study for a test in my Automotive basic course. I’ll have to rearrange my time to contact Mr. Steven Knight another time.

      • Barry says:

        John its ok do it after the test is complete!

  48. John Owens says:

    Dear England,

    I will never forget that you created the Unites States of America and will forever credit you for your influence. There was a quote in regards to the English prescence around the globe and I don’t remember it, but it is true the English people will always be somewhere on the globe when the sun rises. The very few English Americans who acknowledge you will always look to your wisdom and please look after my English brothers and sisters in Canada, New Zealand, America and Australia.

  49. Barry says:

    The quote was regarding the Empire and it was the sun never sets on the Empire as it was so big! I wish our brothers and sisters in the other English speaking nations would mark their Englishness more than they do I hope this blog will give them the courage to do so!

  50. John Owens says:

    Dear England,

    Please deal with my brother Michael because he thinks he’s fucking Irish and has said the Bray ancestors who settled in Ireland from England may have intermarried with the Irish local females. Besides this, he think the Bray ancestors who settled in Ireland were considered Irish and I let him think he’s Irish. Stupid moron. In the future, take back the U.S. and deal with the morons who deny their English heritage harshly.

    • barry says:

      A good friend of mine is a Bray and he is as English as the day is long!! Tell him that Brays have been in England a very long time and are English although they might have Irish decendents it does not make the English Brays ,Irish…

  51. John Owens says:

    Thank you, but I told my older brother Michael he is of English ancestry and he will not listen. The only answer is to let guilt hurt him in the future and I really want England to take back America at some point in the future.

    • Barry says:

      If it wasnt for the French poking their noses in the Republicans would not have won anyway, they did the same in Canada and came unstuck! We might do one day for now its goign its own way if only it stayed on the path of the Empire and did not loose its connections with England it would be a much better place!

  52. John Owens says:

    To be honest, I don’t have any sympathy towards America and it will up be to our other English brothers and sisters to decide their fate as descendants of the English people. I am one of the few English Americans who heard England calling their people and I’m loyal to the English culture to the very end. That is my oath.

    • Barry says:

      Its good to hear such support from our cousins yonder, however its not loud enough, perhaps a St George’s Day celebration on 23rd April which is also shakespeare’s birthday to mark Englands saint and a bonfire night celebration on 5th November might get things going?

  53. John Owens says:

    This is a seperate comment to Mr. Barry.

    Mr. Barry, it eventually became obvious that I must send a letter to Mr. Knight due to the size of my input in the comment box via CA legislature website. The letter which I will send is a work in progress using Microsoft Word 2007 and it will take time.

  54. Tobbs Jamison says:

    Its great to hear that there are among those whose passions are aroused when we discuss our common heritage. I was in Atlanta Georgia on st paddy’s. As you know here in america the streets do come literally alive with green and tangerine colors and a bit of booze as well on st paddys. I happen to meet two off duty police officers while i was watching the spectacle of bag pipes and drum marching. Both officers Marley and Henders-Peets were standing next to me and we happen to talk about this wonderful cultural badge bearing spectacle we were all drawn to watch. They asked me whether i am Irish and i replied ” I am American”. Officer Marley was particularly puzzled by my response. He gave me a really tough looking gaze and insisted ” What do you mean and what are you exactly”. Officer Henders- Peets had a police badge hanging by the neck and i personally thought i was being violated and i hastily replied ” I am i breaking the law”. Well they laughed that one off and Henders gave me a reassuring look and said “certainly not, just curious”. Well Immediately Marley barged in and said ” Your answer was a bit unexpected because usually on this day most people you talk to will profess some sort of Irish connection however faint or questionable it may be and you certainly said something that prompted me to be curious”.

    Well, as it we went about talking , i showed them my drivers license and very immediately one of them remarked ” Jameson!, I think of Irish Whiskey; so you are Irish after all.” I could see a bit of relief in his eyes as he said it . I wasn’t going to let officers have it their way and i responded calmly and said ” Sorry to disappoint you officers, I am an American of English descent and i am very proud of my ancestral roots like you folks are with yours.” Well i too got a reply i did not expect when both said they are not Irish. Then it occurred to me that it might my opportunity to turn the tables and asked about who they are. Officer Henders was the first to say ” Me and my family have strong English roots going back to the colonies”. And i said “officer Henders are you offended by your roots?” He shook his head and replied ” If I were i wouldn’t be talking about it.” As for Marley he professed to be an “old stock American” an euphemism for people who claim to be descended from the early Americans. Because i wanted officer Marley to open up i said ” Scottish or english?” Officer Marley replied in a jovial manner ” I am only English and skittish if that is satisfactory.”

    It came naturally to ask both officers of their itinerary for the April 23rd. And as one probably knows most people in America do not know at all or little about April 23rd. After i have informed them about St Gs and bits of english culture, Officer Marley suggested i should meet a guy by the name of Barry Coves Remington in Kentucky. Remington teaches North European History and he is an Anglo American cultural revivalist. Here in America if you talk about Anglo- American cultural revivalists it really scares a lot out of people because we assume they are somehow related to right wing probably white ethno- American racists. Of course Marley assured me that he is not a racist, in fact he is a liberal academic who studied in the north east ivy colleges. Remington is interested in early American culture and influence of lowlands Scots and the northern english in much of contemporary and traditional European culture in America. According to what i read of Remington much of the culture of the south and the Appalachians is heavily influenced by the settlement of the Northern English and Lowland Scots and to a lesser degree by protestants scotch-Irish. Well i still haven’t met Remington but i will surely make that effort. At the moment i have been preparing to meet the current congressman from my district and his challenger about St Georges day. Next week I am going back to Kansas talk to a mayor whom i have already said a bit and he seemed fine with a celebration of some sort but wondered if it will be well supported. You folks in england please lobby your country to advertise British cultural days in American media as most people do not know a thing about them. It isn’t that people are not interested they are just not encouraged. I am doing my bit. If your government can do your bit here thru your embassies this can take off in 3 years time. After all about 83% person of all Americans including plastic paddys have one or more english ancestors. Can you do that. My conversation with the two officers only show you that ordinary english Americans from ordinary working families have pride in their roots and this can only be good if it is given an effort higher up.

    • Barry says:

      Ah Tobbs good to see you are gaining ground on this issue, lets hope once St George’s Day is established you can really press hard for Guy Fawkes Night or Bonfire Night on 5th November.So to whom can I write to in America, the British Emabassy in Washington?
      Glad the police officers remember their roots shame they do not celebrate them though!

      • Tobbs Jamison says:

        Barry your embassy in Washington would be an excellent idea. Also talking to your cultural foundations in the UK to lobby your gov. to take this cultural revisit in America very seriously. I have already talked with a fellow who lives near DC who thought this is a brilliant idea and he’ll pay a visit to the British Embassy in DC to pass some suggestions to help this idea. You know Barry we already have people here in the states in big cities mostly whom you’ll find performing some sort of english cultural events. This i found out when talking to Ms Nance and other folks that this is already happening. what is needed is to give this a boost so that it is seen and talked about. If it is taken like one of the major events of the year i think i would really take off big. Despite their flirt with the Irish, Americans still do have deep feelings about england and this i think comes from a natural, genuine connection they hold for the old country. You know this may take time but know this every journey starts with a single step. What would actually please me most is the opinions of my fellow Americans on this blog because i think its pivotal. Take care and do you bit there in england.

      • Tobbs Jamison says:

        John just like you it seems everybody is busy these days. On Monday April 9th i were to meet with the mayor of a town in Kansas however everything did not go well. You will forgive me for not mentioning the names of some people and only referring to them ONLY in third person. I will only use the names of those i know will not mind if i mention their names here. You know, i had made preparations to meet with the mayor and to my disappointment it did not go well at all. Just a few days before this meeting i had made some posters with my guys about St Gs day on the 23rd of April all over town. Our Posters were vandalized and painted over with with green and tangerine paint, glossed over with a black spray paint, they were knocked over and dismantlement. The sign that usually means you lot are not welcomed here. You know, I am a libertarian, the constitution is my Bible and i was just shocked by this act. Well, I went to see the mayor as arranged and we talked about it. In the middle of this act of intolerence, there was a citizens petition against my proposal to have a St Gs day in his town. The mayor is a nice cool headed guy so i decided not to use his name here because i could need him in my efforts later. By the way the petition was sponsored as i came to learn by the duo of Clearey and Donovan who were concerned that what i proposed harbor dangerous elements. Well as far as I know myself i am not dangerous and i have never been involved in anything criminal all my life. Now celebrating one’s heritage what damage could this do to anybody?

        As you know here in the US its election year and stuff like this could win or lose you votes. The mayor confessed this is a dilemma for him as he needs votes right now and may be we could focus on this issue after the elections. Putting the mayor aside, I am frankly horrified that there is such level of intolerance in this country. My family have been in this country since 1685. They came here when America was not yet born. They were not from the Mayflower but from countless of unsung ships that ferried english folks from England to seek new life in what was then the colony of Virginia. Many of my distant kins fought in the American Revolution. They did this to build a new country and a new beginning. More than 200 years after the war of independence the descendants of those that came here in latter years to join the American nation are fearful and intolerant of those who want to celebrate the very founding culture that gave America its laws and language. There are folks who are so desperately Anglo-phobic that they can go at any lengths to show it. As an English American i have a right to flag up my heritage as anybody else. Lets assume the 90 Million English Americans or so estimated by demographers or that 50 Million count in the 1980s census have been poisoned and a lot of them have perished doesn’t anyone think those who are left deserve their dignity and right to celebrate their heritage.
        I wasn’t there to contest the fact that 90% of white Americans claim to be Irish, German, East European or Cherokee. I was not there to seek dominance over others but just for a mere celebration of my roots. I know that the english Americans have done a lot and enough because they have build a country that is now a melting pot, they were tolerant of countless of immigrants who came here because they wanted to build a new nation. As they go extinct I am proud because their achievements are quite evident in every day things and most of all in the language we speak in America (English Language). Can’t we all just get over it and get along?.

        As for the British Embassy in Washington a friend of mine was disappointed that the British Embassy was only promoting April 23rd as literary day, celebrating the writings of Shakespeare not generally as English Heritage day. Some of the folks who were there were not impressed and the whole thing was low key. Barry do you still think your country is doing enough to promote British heritage here. Personally I doubt.

      • Barry says:

        No I dont think they are doing nearly enough which is why we need you over their to force the agenda!! Defacing those posters is criminal damage as they belong to you. I would file a report with local police regarding this, the Irish over their think thery can rule the roost show them they cant!

        Have you been to the English Democrats website and have you joined or set up a similar organisation in America? Go to http://www.voteenglish.org/ and http://thesgc.moonfruit.com/ join up and spread the word!!

        I hope you can have a St George’s Day committee in America soon! When you do you will have access to free literature that you can change to represent English Americans and America as a whole ie Jamestown and Virginia etc.

        Will you join?

      • John Owens says:

        I will join the St. George’s Committe on facebook and already have done so, but I rather mention this now. I’ve like England to celebrate St. George’s Day facebook page seven weeks ago and commented several times explaining myself. I’m currently finding out how to join the English Democrats’s efforts in their mission.

      • Barry says:

        Great news John let me know how your application goes!!

      • John Owens says:

        I understand why you didn’t mention the mayor’s name and as a English American, currently my feeling towards America are not positive.

      • John Owens says:

        To further expand on what I’ve meant when my feelings toward America is not positive. As an English American, I am disappointed in what America is nowadays and how it doesn’t recognize the English influence or the English culture. ( I had to explain what I’ve meant by my last post because I think the internet is not a secured place.)

      • John Owens says:

        I don’t have anything to contribute to the English democrats other than supporting words and my efforts here defending and representing the English culture.

      • Barry says:

        John you can download leaflets and distribute them you can also join the stgeorge’s committee for free, if you go to the st george’s committee twitter page it gives you the web address so you can join.

      • John Owens says:

        I found the website and the leafets, however I don’t understand how I can download them. Without a doubt, I can print the leafets and I shouldn’t have a problem with this. I really need help with downloading the leafets.

      • Barry says:

        If you can print them do that and photocopy them instead!!

    • John Owens says:

      This reminds me of when I was 14 years old and I particpated in a Korean American day from where I live in the High Desert. This actually happened. It was nighttime and I was at a high school called Silverado High School in the art threatre where the majority of the people present were Koreans. I was there with my mom and my older brother and watched a Korean music group dressed in traditional clothing perform 16th century music using equipment from that time period. Later on that night, a CHP( California Highway Patrol) officer who is a Korean American was presented an award for his work. The few people there were of non Korean descent and my memory is not that good. The point is the American citizens of Korean ancestry didn’t have a problem celebrating their heritage and were proud of it.

      • John Owens says:

        Tobbs Jamison, you can join Barry and me on twitter and it is just a recommendation. Another reason why I mention this is because you can communicate to other unreached English Americans. My twitter name is 467rkv and Barry’s twitter name is @stgeorgesdaycsw.

      • John Owens says:

        I’m following the English Democrats on twitter and liked their facebook page. I did so after looking at the English Democrats’s website on finding out how to contact them.

    • John Owens says:

      I’m a little confused over the currency based on what I had seen on the St. George’s Committee website. Are pounds suppose to be equal to dollar bills? I also like to learn the English currency terms such as shilling for example in case I’m attempting to understand the cost. ( Currently, I have two weeks left in my Spring semester college course Automotive basics designated Automotive 50 and I will be a little busy.)

      • Barry says:

        We use £’s Pounds and Pence, they are worth more than the dollar approx 1 dollar equals about 80p.

      • John Owens says:

        I would like learn more about the currency used in the U.K. and I might convince my father into buying some merchandise off the website next year on my birthday. I don’t have a bank account and the economy here from where I live in the U.S.( state: California) has a few job openings. ( My father may be able to have a job based on Northerngrumpman’s decisions.)

  55. John Owens says:

    Tobbs, I have an English American facebook page and what can my English American facebook do in the favour of the English culture? ( I have interest in English words with additional u and other vowels.)

    • Barry says:

      John I am on twitter and have started a st georges day account were you can both write! its @stgeorgesdaycsw go to the site and follow maybe get something going both sides of the pond! John link the stgeorgesday account into your facebook account. Tobbs can you spread the word about the twitter account although its not American English its about St George’s Day so its a start, if either of you sign up to twitter I can help spread the word about Anglo-Americans here as well as stateside.I will email the embassy today and let you know the response.

      • John Owens says:

        Barry, there are 4 or 5 people who liked my English American facebook page and very little has changed. For all I know, it seems to be a statue and I don’t have enough likes. I need help with more likes from my English brothers and sisters from England and America.

      • John Owens says:

        I’m also creating a twitter account and the post below is the status of my English American facebook page.

      • John Owens says:

        Barry, my twitter account is active. My profile picture is St. George’s Cross and my first and last name is on my profile.

  56. Barry says:

    Reply from the British Embassy in Washington.

    Perhaps your friend based in Washington can achieve some more or perhaps you can email them as I did and see what response you get?

    Thank you for your enquiry. While we do not hold public events, we do recognize the holidays listed. For example this year the First Minister put out a message for St. David’s Day which was featured on our home page. Additionally, the British Council promotes British culture throughout the USA. We hope this helps answer your query.

    The British Embassy

  57. John Owens says:

    St. David’s day must a Welsh Holiday and I would like to celebrate it, but I don’t have the time since I have placed the English culture first. Besides, I have a few other reasons based on responsibility and other problems I must deal with. For all those who don’t know, I believe I’m an American citizen of Welsh ancestry since I found out my last name is of Welsh origin.

    I have an English American facebook page in need of activity and likes from English brothers and sisters whether you reside in Australia, England, Canada, New Zealand and mother England. I probaly shouldn’t have said mother England because I am an American citizen by birth and not a English citizen.

  58. John Owens says:

    By the way, I made an error and I have stated England twice. Just letting you know of my mistake or mistakes.

  59. John Owens says:

    Just to clarify that I am most likely an American citizen of Welsh ancestry. My grandfather had the last name Owens and my grandmother who had the last name Bray, however there isn’t any physical facial evidence which indicates that I have any African blood at all. Probaly you were asking whether or not I’m telling the truth in regards to my believing I am most likely an Welsh American. Now since I decided to clear the issue right away so others will not have to think I’m lying. ( This is a seperate post to clear any misunderstanding.)

  60. John Owens says:

    Tobbs Jamison, I am glad your progress has achieved your goals. For now, my progress is slow regarding St. George’s Day due to a letter which I have to make adjustments and corrections. I’m starting off with small steps so far.

  61. John Owens says:

    Barry, I have a youtube account and don’t have any videos. However, I can comment on related English American videos and thus spread the word around. Do you have friends who also have youtube accounts?

    • Barry says:

      i have an account!

      • John Owens says:

        I have placed at least one comment on one of the videos talking about English Americans which belongs to Englishethnicpride2 on youtube. His actions on youtube indicate he is passionate about raising awareness of English Americans. If you or your friends have youtube videos about St. George’s Day or English Americans, I will comment on it.

      • John Owens says:

        I have an idea. How about linking any English related youtube videos on twitter to strengthen St. George’s Day? I don’t have any video equipment available, but I can use my voice.

  62. John Owens says:

    I like just as much for St. George’s Day to celebrated in the State of California,USA, but Mr. Steve Knight(Republican party) is very busy dealing with California’s state issues and I will have to wait for another opportunity for another time.

  63. Shaun says:

    I’ve been to America a few times over the years(New York, Philadelphia) and have only ever met a few people with English ancestry — and that was only a small part of their heritage apparently…

    It’s a real shame that other people (and we all know who they are) have poisoned the proud history of England, in America.

    I certainly agree that we don’t do anywhere near enough to promote English/American heritage over here. We go on and on about the bond of the two countries being based on friendship and respect, and forget about our shared culture/heritage and family.

    Two programs have been produced recently about trekking across America:

    Stephen Fry in America – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1307789/

    Billy Connolly’s Route 66 – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058779/

    Both British shows that failed to mention the achievements of English, Scottish or Welsh Americans.

    It’s all about the Irish and Germans.

    Both groups are amazingly vocal, and are not afraid to rewrite history for their own purpose.

    I wonder how long it will be before we’re told that the American founding fathers, were really Irish/German.

    • Barry says:

      Shaun problem is what are we and going to do about it!! Surely we want the truth of how America the country was founded dont we? If you know anbody in America please direct them here and to the plight of England via the English Democrats and ask them to celebrate St George’s Day that way we can be vocal!!

    • Daizinwolf says:

      Shaun, it’s not Germans and Irish rewriting America. It’s elite Jews. They control the media, entertainment, banking, education. Look up Marxism. Research what is being taught in our schools and universities.

  64. John Owens says:

    Today, I’ve given out a couple of leafets to two members of my church called First Baptist of Hesperia: Pastor Richard Spring and to a deacon, Mr. Johnson who had the appearance of an English American. Both were most likely in the late 30s or early 40s. As far as I know, both of them didn’t have a problem with my leafets and I explained if they didn’t like it, then they can tear it or throw it in the trash. I also explained I didn’t have a problem if they didn’t like it or were not interested at all, but I’ll never know of their response unless they tell me.

    • Barry says:

      Will be interested to hear their response!!

      • John Owens says:

        I will also give a leafet to my Automotive basics professor Warnock and he certainly looks like an English American. However, he could also be a Welsh American and in my lifetime, I have talked to Welsh Americans even though I was later interested in Welsh surnames when I became 19 years old. Can you find out whether or not Warnock is welsh or english surname origin?

      • Barry says:

        Warnock I believe is Welsh we have some famous warnocks in England though so orginally might be Welsh some who are born in England will be England by being born here if that makes sense? Neil Warnock is a famous player and manager look him up!!

    • John William Owens says:

      Development Pastor Richard Spring of First Baptist Church of Hesperia is not interested most likely because he has other priorities. As for Mr. Johnson( a deacon and has other roles), I don’t know what his repsonse is.

  65. John Owens says:

    I think Automotive basic Professor Mike Warnock is both Welsh and English american because there is a similiarity between the facial features of Neil Warnock and him. However, what I had said can be called a unproven theory and I don’t think Neil Warnock and Professor Mike Warnock are related through family blood.

  66. Shaun says:

    I think the surname “Warnock” is actually Scottish. Although, it is found primarily in the lowlands of Scotland and Northern England — so it could be originally Anglo-Saxon (English)

    There are very few people in Wales with that surname.


    • John Owens says:

      At this time, both opinions about the Warnock surname is uncertain as to where it started from the very beginning.

      • John William Owens says:

        Conclusion to Warnock surname: it is of Scottish. Today, my Automotive basics professor reacted to my leafet: Scottish and Norweign. But he handed me the same leafet and I decide to keep it just in case.

      • John William Owens says:

        Shaun, you are correct about the Warnock surname.

  67. John Owens says:

    On my English American facebook page, Lee Seville( Englishman from England) posted a Jerusalem Hymn( I don’t know what to categorize this as).

    Jerusalem Hymn

    And did those feet in ancient time
    Walk upon England’s mountain green?
    And was the holy Lamb of God
    On England’s pleasant pastures seen?
    And did the countance divine
    Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
    And was Jerusalem builded here
    Among those dark satanic mills?

    Bring me a my bow of burning gold!
    Bring me my arrows of desire!
    Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
    Bring me my chariot of fire!
    I will not cease from mental fight,
    Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
    Till we have built Jerusalem
    In England’s green and pleasant land.

  68. John Owens says:

    You can find my English American facebook my posting on English Democrats fb page and St. georges committee. Barry, I’ve liked your St. George’s Committee facebook page two weeks ago I think and thus connected so far.

    • John Owens says:

      Correction: St George’s Committe title was incorrectly typed and is properly typed St Georges Committee facebook page.

  69. Barry says:

    The St George’s Committee FB page is not mine! The Jerusalem hymn is based on a belief that jesus was seen in England and this hymn is about that sighting and the fact because of that the English people believe as the jews were before them the chosen people!!

    • John William Owens says:

      I was confused when I read Lee Seville’s post on my English American page and didn’t know what to make out of it. Wow, the Jerusalem hymn is just strange and I’m going to pretend it didn’t exist.

    • John William Owens says:

      Barry, I believe you that St. George’s Committee FB is not yours and yes I think you are a participating members of the organization( I’m not negative and being positive).

  70. Shaun says:

    I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but the hymn was set to music in 1916, by Sir Hubert Barry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTVwFgL8Y7w

    It is popular simply as a homage to England – forget about the religious overtones.

    Most(all?) of the other patriotic songs are more about Britain.

    • John William Owens says:

      I’m just completely confused and would like to learn more about the English culture when I can. Keep going Shaun and don’t give up, my English American brother.

    • Barry says:

      I was making him aware why the hymn was written. Our best song is probably ‘Land of hope and Glory’

    • Shaun says:

      That should read – Sir Hubert Parry. Not Barry, sorry for the confusion.

  71. Shaun says:


    ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ is also my personal favourite.


    Have a listen to ‘Land of Hope and Glory’, it was written by Edward Elgar(Melody) & A.C Benson(Words).

    Part of the melody is known in America as ‘Pomp and Circumstance’, and is used in graduation ceremonies.

    P.S –Did you know that the melody to the ‘Star Spangled Banner’ was written by an Englishman?

    The melody to the American national anthem was actually a British drinking song called ‘To Anacreon in Heaven/The Anacreontic Song’. It written by John Stafford Smith.


    The lyrics to The Star Spangled Banner were written by an English American, Francis Scott Key, and later set to this music.

    • barry says:

      I did not know that shaun, and yes Land of Hope anf glory is my favourite too!! Shaun you got any friens in the states if so ask them to spread the word!!

    • John William Owens says:

      Shaun, a year ago when I was searching for anything that involved my interest about the British involvement in the American Civil War and I found the Star Spangled Banner lyrics and information. What caught my attention is that the influence Francis Scott Key wrote based on the British drinking song as you have mentioned in months later lead to my interest in my English heritage. The blood of the Bray family(English) and the blood of the Owens family (Welsh) is in my DNA. ( The Jerusalem hymn is very well constructed and I take back about pretending I didn’t hear this song because earlier I thought it was too odd.)

    • John William Owens says:

      Shaun, are an English American or English ( as to living in the motherland England)? I only ask because I may have incorrectly called out the wrong relative term such as my English American brother in one of my posts. Are you an English cousin( not actually blood related) or an English American brother?

      • Shaun says:


        It’s great that you are taking such a Keen interest in your English/Welsh heritage. You should be proud of both.

        BTW, I am English. Born and bred in London.

        If you have any questions about life in England — don’t be afraid to ask.


      • John William Owens says:

        What do you think of America when you have last visited whenever you can recall? I don’t think State of California, USA really shows the English influence.

    • Fitsy82 says:

      Not suprising considering modern day America was founded by men and women with direct ancestry from Britain, whom based all laws, legal systems, education, town plans and core principles on those from the motherland. The flag, its settlements, the language and traditions (Thanksgiving, Halloween) all based on those found across the British Isles. Modern day Americans may be discouraged from celebrating their Britishness, but the truth is just staring them in the face. You cant re-write history and no swing to pro German ancestry will ever change facts, the USA was founded by the British over successive and succesful wave after wave of migration. For decades the amount of British re locating outnumbered ALL other immigrants. To state their are more German related folk in the US is to state there are more Welsh in the UK, statistically it is impossible. As for the old arguments of Germans changeing their surnames to Anglicised versions, thats limited too, many actually switched the other way to denounce Anglo heritage. Schmidt from Smith? Anyway, just look at the country… You’d have to be from another planet to deny who or where it came from… 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇬🇧

  72. John William Owens says:

    Shaun, did you know you can create St. George’s cross on a 3X5 card( on the open side without lines)? It shouldn’t be difficult and you can found a picture of St. George’s Cross on bing images. My recommendation is to place St. George’s Cross on the inside of the back window in your motor vehicle as a option, but it’s up to you.

  73. John William Owens says:

    This website http://wearetheenglish.com// was posted by Mr. Lee Sevile on my English American FB page and you could order English made products of St. George’s Cross and more English cultural products. For further translation of currency used in England ( English Americans specificly who don’t understand how this currency works and I am one of them), please talk to our English cousin whose name is Barry.

  74. John William Owens says:

    I cannot figure out why I can’t copy and paste my 3X5 card drawing of St. George’s Cross. I think I need to hear answers why I’m unable to do this action.

  75. John William Owens says:

    Another website Barry advised me to look at is http://www.SteadfastTrust.org.uk.

  76. Mike Byrne says:

    Difference is to other groups need things to indentify themselves against to give them a sense of themselves. The english have never needed such identifiers maybe as they are more comfortable. This however maybe changing as we now have identity politics where the english are being ignored abd now have to shout more

    • Barry says:

      Is this site not about English or Anglo-Americans? Our cousins over seas need to spread the word amongst themselves to keep their own history alive.

  77. Mike Byrne says:

    It is wrong to say the anglo saxons werent english. From early documents both north and south ebgland the term englisc and angelcunn and englaland after all it was a tribal society. Certainly there was a shared common culture however there is no evidence cektic was spoken before anglo saxobs and roman names make more sense in old english than celtic. Avon for example comes from afon which in old english was haevon meaning port.

    • Steven Reeves Ford says:

      I have certainly watched as this blog grows. A friend of mine who was a police officer told me about this blog and what it says when i was in Chicago. I am a proud American, I was born in America and i am proud of my country. I have read much of your blog and you have said much of what one already know. I also came to know about your blog when i meet a bearded gentleman from Kansas named Jameson promoting english American awareness in Texas. He looked more like a lone soldier fighting the impossible. For a moment I thought this blog may be promoting some right wing anti government survivalist agenda but i have been amazed by the straight forwardness, open-mindedness and rationalism of you discussions.

      My father was born in the state of Vermont from a long line of men and women who descended from the early english Americans. My paternal forebears left england in 1673 from Yorkshire to settle in Ireland before they left for America. I guess if i were like most people who idolize Irishness i would consider myself Irish for the fact that my family came to the colonies of America from Ireland. I guess that would not be genuine as my forebears never considered themselves Irish. My paternal family settled in Virginia in 1698 before spreading into place like Vermont. Apparently my family fought on the side of the British during the war of independence and some of the family left to settle in Quebec and Ontario. Do i feel bad about their part in the American war of independence? No, I don’t.

      My mother’s side of the family are the Reeves and the Evans. My mother comes from the southern State of Tennessee. Her paternal family the Reeves came to America in 1706 via Liverpool but were originally from London. I often heard from my mother that her ancestor was at the time a very wealthy man who had interests in the Caribbeans. It is from my mother that i came to know that the name Reeve is old english for authority and the word Sheriff comes from Olde English SHIRE REEVE meaning county authority. Unlike most of his compatriots he did not come to America to seek wealth and opportunity he came to expand on his wealth and gain more opportunity. Evans is my mother’s maternal surname. The Evens like the reeves come to America in 1718 from London. According to the records James Evens’s father (my mother’s great, great, great great father) was an orphan from south Wales who was married to a well to do english woman named Margret Tomlinson. That connection with the Tomlinsons enabled his son James to leave for the colonies. By this i mean to say some of us have not forgotten our roots. I would say this however about the UK government it is not doing enough to promote cultural ties with the American people. On St George’s day they would rather promote Shakespeare only than to promote other aspects of British culture.

      As for the founding fathers being Irish the word is already out. In Chicago i meet a gentleman called Marcus H Macey who was telling me about Washington’s Irish ancestry and the forgotten history of the Randolphs of Ireland for Thomas Jefferson. This proves that there are people out there who are determined to rewrite their own version of history and i meet Macey on St Patrick day. There is also a myth that the Fitz names(Fitzwilliam, Fitzgerald, Fitzpatrick) are Irish while in fact Fitz surnames are english and they originate from the Norman times. It is also lost amongst many that st Patrick was actually British.

  78. siddyg says:

    Really interesting blog. I’m English and proud. I’m also proud to call myself British. It’s an interesting concept being proud of being both British and English. It’s must be confusing for some people to understand if there not from these shores. Anyway. I have always thought of Americans as my cousins, as well as the Aussies and kiwis and Canadians, interestingly I don’t identify with being European. Truth is is that there is no real genetic race that is English, for me it’s a state of mind and cultural values. I agree with the concept of most English descend Americans just considering themselves American, I believe this comes with an inner confidence of being what just what you are “American” no more no less. That said its a shame that there are those who strive to deny you of being proud of your forefathers ancestry. It is true that many countries that were once part of the empire have a habit of stating that they hate the English, but that comes in many cases form having inherited an English/British sense of self depreciating humour, and also let’s not forget in part from a dislike of those Englishman mostly landed gentry who were arrogant and pompous and ruled over the lower classes with little sympathy or compassion. That’s not to say that the English ruling classes did not have some of the greatest characters amongst their ranks the world has ever known, but there were certainly many who were complete mugs. The phrase “lions led by donkeys has often been true” I think the so called WASP nations have a deep if not always recognised link that will sometimes be strained or ignored but never broken completely. The thing about being English is that it just is a natural thing that doesn’t have to be pushed or shouted from the rooftops, we dominated our British cousins without a doubt and that is why they probably always feel that they have to prove themselves or reinforce their identity, but hey no that was ages ago and people need to get over themselves. For the most part I think us Limeys or poms are regarded with a degree of affection not by everybody, but by most who meet us or come to our shores, sure there are some compete pricks, but ain’t there everywhere. I have read some comments about Americans being arrogant on other blogs, but the truth is our Yankee cousins have just got the same attitudes as we had two or three hundred years ago, there having to be the worlds policeman and in doing so they are gonna rub people up the wrong way, that’s life, I think a lot of English people moan about the Celtic nations having an inferiority complex, and we english especially the metropolitan elite probably now have the same inferiority complex about the Americans. On the whole I think America is a force for good, no one nation gets it right all the time and nor will or have America, but they are giving it a go, which is more than whinnying Europeans can say. Anyway any Americans reading this if you come to England visit London but then get out to the smaller cities they have as much history, Cornwall, intact all what we. Call the West Country is beautiful so are places like Lincoln and Winchester, Exeter, Durham, Bristol, Bath, Chichester, the Home Counties as well are places that would probably reflect our shared heritage to a large degree. Anyways wherever you are “there will always be a foreign field that is England” as someone famous once said.

    • Barry says:

      Siddyg the reason the English are leaving the British party in droves is because unlike during the Empire anyone can be British and if you add in the Independence calls from Scotland and Wales is it surprising why the largest group of these isles wants their Independence and or to be recognised as English rather than British. As for your ‘no genetic race claim’ if we are going to go down that route we can lay that claim at almost any country…Canada(no such genetic race as canadian, America the same ..France the same as they were formed from a race of Germanic francs hence France, kiwis and Aussies…their is no point in looking at genetics as almost anyone in any country has a another genetic race in them (well in Europe they do) in Africa they are not gentically South African …and so on and so on if you have a family history here in these lands then surely thats enough..I like you want the Americans to make more of their English history..it founds their laws, their politics, schools and Army in fact everything America is founded on is English even the obvious its Language…Americans to some degree are like us in attitude some 300 or so years ago the difference was this we didnt talk about what were going to do or how we were going to do it then kill our allies by mistake we just went and did it!! We were better, stronger and for longer than the US in fact the commonwealth still exsits and too my knowledge the US has never had an Empire and it hates the fact we did and we dominated most of the known world with it. I am sure that when we took over a country we made it better than it was but we also took it over for the right reasons it was either threatening us or could do, the US not only get involved where they are not wanted when they do take control they rub it in something I believe we never did. They try and dominate but they do it the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. You ask any serving or retired service personnel about working with or serving with yanks if you dont believe me.

      • J. Burke Hodgerson says:

        Two weeks ago i was in London just touring. Well, I ‘ll confess i don’t really know much about London and what i saw was something i did not expect. London is actually more ethnically and more linguistically diverse than a poor American like me ever thought of England. It is more diverse ethnically than most American cities. I saw diverse communities each with its own neighborhood pulling its own way with little or no visible reality of the country each live in. I was shocked to hear that only 49.2% of the population of the city is made up of the indigenous population. I guess this is a good thing or a bad thing depending on the side of the immigration debate you are on. I thought the cultures there seem more divergent than integrated and in some ethno-religious groups there was more desire to preserve their own cultural and religious ideals and resist the concept of Britishism. I thought to myself in my country the US, there is an ideal of Americanism which every immigrant is striving to become in America and yet in England the idea of being one under the umbrella of Britishness seems not that important.

        That comes to this; When i was over there in England a soldier was hacked to death on the streets during a broad day light by two young men. I am highlighting this incident because i thought it exposes some holes in a way that you folks especially the ruling class approach so called multiculturalism. This young soldier was hit by a car and stabbed and beheaded by two religiously motivated young men; who did not only committed this hideous murder and boasted about it to those who dared to watch but were bold enough to wait out the police. What followed was actually more interesting to the observer than the actual incident. We know that these two young men are religiously inspired. one has been to overseas and was caught in Kenya. we know that they are a tiny part of many young men who have committed hideous and murderous crimes against the state and persons in the name of their religion. There is nothing wrong if you believe in something but it should never be shielded from criticism if so many are slain by those of faith. All religions profess to be about peace and harmony but history has taught us that it is often the wrong side of religion that we see. Religious certitudes often breeds intolerance, disharmony and sometimes a justification to commit horrors. we have come a long way in the west from medieval times when religion was the weapon to either save life or to crudely take it in the name of God.

        Here is what was interesting. Immediately after the murder there was a hastily organized rally by the EDL (English Defence League) which was immediately criticized by the establishment. There were series of interviews that were done by politicians and the know alls of the establishment. There was a need somehow peculiar to all interviews made to stress that the young men were not representing their religion and people of that faith are honest, law abiding citizens who have done a lot for the the country. I am using the word ‘peculiar’ deliberately. Had anyone ever recalled an incident where after a murder have been committed the police would take an initiative to stress how the suspect comes from a good law abiding family and the suspect ‘s acts does not reflect the moral values of his family and the community. Why go that far? Does anyone remember the sex abuse scandal in catholic church? I remember no one dared to go that far as to stress that the acts of the priests involved did not represent the teachings of the Catholic church. In fact the hierarchy and the structure of the Catholic church was heavily criticized and others even went as far as challenging the teaching of the church itself. In the murder of the soldier that did not happen. In a free society religion should never be protected from criticism especially when its members in more than one occasion has invoked it in their commitment of hideous acts. When the preachers of hate uses it to decide fates and ruin the fibers of society. There has been 7/7, Foiled plots to bomb airliners other foiled plots to bomb the houses of parliament and them the murder of the soldier; isn’t that enough of a red flag already?

        I have gone on to watch interviews on the television throughout the day of representatives of the communities and religion. I have seen them from so called moderates to the ridiculous. I have seen some apologize and some going as far as blaming foreign wars on the murder. Non had the decency to condemn a crime on its own. They somehow had the audacity to play politics and showed littlest of regard to what had happened. There was always a stress not to talk religious by moderators and no seen to condemn the act as motivated by religious preaching. There was very little about the feelings of the ordinary folk than the views of the interest groups and faith preachers some of whom were responsible for spreading this poison. I do not think that behavior by the media and the establishment accounts to tolerance but it is rather a failure to state the obvious. There is a problem and it a social and a religious problem. I have heard disgusting comments by a well known radicals given air time by the mainstream media. I remember the man named Choudry on BBC. Why give a butt-head like him airtime. The very media that failed to give an airtime to the people who were protesting about the murder of the soldier. I am sure there were extremists amongst the protesters but there were also ordinary folk in there who where disgusted by what happened. Folks who were in solidarity with the family and friends of the slain solder. If that was the way to silence EDL and other right wingers this i thought was just a recruitment call handed over to them by the mainstream. If you ignore the views of some in the society guess what; you just gave them a cause. it is better to give the disgruntled a voice in the mainstream than to drive them further away to the right wing opportunists. I have talked to many during my stay in London and the believe there is too much political correctness going on. “If we are only able to criticize some not all free society is perishing” a frail old woman named Margret Toomey told me. Now folks what is going on over there?

  79. Andy Omaughllyn Clinton says:

    This is a very interesting blog. My name is Andrew Omaughllyn Phelps Clinton. I am certainly not related to Bill CLINTON. I am an American from Florida though i was born in Tennessee. I grew up in Tennessee for the most part of my life. My parents really never bothered about their ancestry they thought it did not matter. On one hand both my grandparents had some interest in ancestry. I grew up in a neighborhood where most people were protestants and my family was catholic. Being catholic I guess most people considered us Irish. The neighborhood was of mixed heritage but judging by the most surnames most people were of British decent. When i was in middle school my teacher asked me about my heritage in front of the class and i said I DID NOT KNOW. She gave an assignment to ask my folks but that was after she had concluded i am probably Scotch-Irish. I did ask my dad about it later that day and he dis-interestingly responded “WHATEVER”. My father’s response gave me a passion to know more about myself and my origins. My father was born in rural Georgia and thats where my grandparents stayed till they passed away. The summer of that year i made sure i visited them with that assignment in mind. According to my grandfather William Phelps Clinton III his great grandfather came to America from Lincolnshire England via Canada during the great railway expansion in the 1800s. His mother’s family the Phelps were from the north-east and he did not know much about them. I asked him why and he said its because his mother never talked about her family. In recent years i have checked the record about my great grand mother’s family. I found that her forebears settled in Boston in1757 from the lake district England and proceeded to live in Philadelphia by 1769. I also found out that most of the Phelps were loyalists who were opposed to the war of independence. As for my mother’s side of the family they were mostly from Liverpool area with one direct Welsh paternal ancestor Albert Morgan Omaughllyn who was born in North Wales. This sharply contradicts my maternal uncle assertion that they are Irish and he chose to write his name O’Maughllyn. I did ask my grandmother about it she could only say if the records say they are welsh they probably are. This in some ways confirms what most of you have already said that most British Americans don’t know much about their roots. I want your opinion on this.
    As for the London murder of a soldier it is a sad story indeed. I guess political correctness has only rendered politics timid and cold. There is so much not to say and so much not to do its a rigid and narrow world all over.

    Suggestions on what to do on the coming Guy Fawkes day to promote the day properly so that people can participate if they so wish. I am interested in ideas and inviting people to talk more about those ideas. My thinking is we need to keep talking while acting out something. Keep ideas flowing and remember a journey of a thousand miles begins with a step.

    • Barry says:

      So glad you found this site..now we need you to spread the word and ask friends and people on twitter/facebook who they are and direct them here. Send people in America the video of Lewes bonfire night if that does not light up passions nothing will. Imagine holding that in an old English type town in US? Buy a St Georges flag fly it on 23rd April St Georges Day and encourage others to do so..the more that celebrate it the better..afterall look what England has given US remind anyone who tries to slate what you are doing and point them to your language, laws and judicial system, politics and foundation of your bill of rights!!

  80. siddyg says:

    Barry your pretty critical of America, I guess when you talk about friendly fire for the most part you talk about USAF incidents on coalition troops, however I guess when we were still running the empire for the most part their was no RAF to make them mistakes and the circumstances were different and probably less complicated.. Another thing i suppose we have to remember is that during the recent campaigns if troops call up air support its nearly always been the USAF that has had to provide it, I know in Bosnia and other places our jets couldn’t carry out bad weather sorties not because our pilots are inferior, but more to do with our hardware being inferior to that of our US counterparts, so I guess on balance the Blue on blue incidents would be more like statistically to involve the Americans, as for our forces attitudes towards the Americans and their military my experience is different from what you say. That’s not to say I’m right or your wrong !!!!!! As for the recent posters referring to Guy Fawkes night, now referred to in this country as fireworks night, all you do is get a big fire, loads of kids and their parents, launch as many fireworks as you can and wait for the kids to start moaning that their so cold they wanna go home.. Alternatively you could reflect on one bit of your joint history ( if you British descent ) and praise the good lord that the catholic/papist plot did not succeed and the mother of all parliaments still stands 🙂 Mr Clinton I see you have discovered you have got what we might call a bit of “taffy” in your blood, I love the welsh I have played rugby with loads of them and they make for good drinking partners, I suppose if you was looking to describe them en masse and I’m not meaning to be offensive here you would compare them to S Africans or the British equivalent. Basically programmed to lift weights, take steroids, drink, fight and play rugby. But all the welsh fellas I have met have been sound blokes, I have a bit of taffy in myself by the way. I think some of the reason that people in America might try and deny their English roots is because I guess that most people when they think of imperialism and elitism and all the other ism,s they probably relate these things to the English rather than the British and I suppose in the 21st century all the ism,s are dirty words, I’m not saying this is justified. Also probably from the American perspective I bet you a pound to a pinch of shit if you ask most of yourselves who they fought for independence from they would say the English or the English parliament or the English king, or if they said
    The British and were asked to explain their perception of “British”they would say one of the above three things… Hope all you Americans who are searching for their roots come and see the mother country, remember our parish records stretch back hundreds of years and would be interesting to any person researching their roots.

    • Barry says:

      I just re read my post , yes it does seem critical…but I was just repeating what I have seen, heard and have been told by ex squaddies.. I was explaining that we have a different mentality is all..look at Hong Kong the people their cried when we left..how many so called former colonies of say Spain or other euro nations were sad to see them go..? I just want Americans to show off their heritage and who they are rather then say the old ‘we are of European dissent, or scots/Irish dessent if your English say so..!! If you don’t know find out.

    • Archie Thomson says:

      Personally i am stunned that millions of Americans would want to align themselves with a race which, if we are honest, brought the world to its knees on 2 occasions and nearly wiped the jewish race and its faith off the face of the earth! Many Germans today hold a deep sadness and regret at what their fore-fathers wreaked onto mankind. Many are deeply ashamed. Why would Americans celebrate any links with such a dark place in time? They the German race were an arogant people, consumed by envy and greed, envy at countries like the United Kingdom with its vast diplomatic style, laws and fair economy. We may have taxed the hell out of the former colonies but our soul aim was not the total destruction of the lands we conquered, or the raping and cleansing of its people, the Americans did that to their own native peoples without Britains help thankyou very much! And Rome did far far more to upset the balance of the peoples they conquered, and lets face it, we wernt conquering America, we were creating it! With our own! In many ways i just want to say to the people of America, get over it! You cant change history, it happened, deal with it! Celebrate where you are from, embrace it and move on. We have had to, its time you did also

      • here here…I 100% concur with all that..

      • Archie Thomson says:

        I think it has more to do with envy and a resentment than anything else, for some reason they have pinned racism onto the “English” name along with “white” and “elitist”, in reality the UK is probably more culturally at peace and intergrated than any part of the US! But they want to align themselves with a former fascist state with a history of elitism, ethnic cleansing and racism?! It doesnt make sense! Seems like a case of using the word “English” for all that is bad and gone wrong in America, when in actual fact, English in every sense is what underpins their whole being both as a race and as a nation. Celebrate it! I am half Scot (Scotch is the drink!) and half English, that makes me British! And i will never be ashamed of that! Ever. We gave the world great things which far far out weigh the bad, science, industry, the arts, freedom, literature, laws, ethics… It goes on and on. Why be ashamed of such greatness?! British til the day i die and proud.

      • Archie..I am sure we are the same person you think pretty mush the same as me with regards Britain?..Ok I am English and wont call myself British anymore but I wont say anything to anyone who wants to be called that either…..They can try and pin what they want on us but in actual fact the new world Europeans(not us) treated the Indians and their tribes far worse than we ever did..and that is fact..yet they have the cheek to oint the finger at us.., this smells of the European rivalry rising its ugly head again..many came from Europe and so had an inbuilt hatred of the English/British as we led the world for many years..this spoiled over in US where they could once and for all stand over Britian where they never could in Europe..

    • Daizinwolf says:


      “I think some of the reason that people in America might try and deny their English.”

      It’s mostly Southern Celts who call themselves ‘Americans’ on Census forms in the United States. They claim Celts are Welsh, Irish, Scots-Irish. Northern English and Irish call themselves English and Irish.

  81. siddyg says:

    Have to agree with you Barry, on the whole the ex British colonies are in better shape than most of those former colonies of other European countries. Just for the INFO of our American cousins in this country in the days running up to 5th November (guy Fawkes night/bonfire night ) us kids used to make something like a scarecrow place it outside of shops and beg for money saying “penny for the guy ” the scare crow thing was an effigy of Guy Fawkes. It was a laugh actually usually bagged enough money for a “packet of ten” or a few “singles” . Happy days. If our American cousins would like to read about when animosity first started between the British nations or the British and the English then they should have a little read of bernard cornwell and his Arthur novels, not necessarily all fact but based on truth and the politics of the day, in short the Saxons and later the Vikings and the original British were all warring with each other for hundreds of years, part of France which is named after the franks who are like Saxons were British hence Brittany and the British isles and bits of France were in turmoil, that turmoil never really has been resolved in some people’s minds ( in my opinion ) the “Norman’s ” eg William the conqueror were not French really like history says they were in fact “Norsemen” living in France for generations when they invaded they then subdued the English or Saxons who from being downtreaders went to downtrodden. The Irish we scots and the scots were Picts and Irish, our isles were proper messed up and it makes great reading. A lot of that history can still be seen and survives to be seen today, Winchester, Norwich, Salisbury, and loads of other towns have great cathedrals where some of the kings you read about in hsitory are buried. You english americans have a great heritage to pass n to your kids and I hope that you visit and find out for yourselves one day .

    • Barry says:

      I do hope they visit and many Americans do but what they do not do is celebrate THEIR own history especially if it is English…I want them to celebrate being English whilst in America…do all things the Irish do…St Patricks Day,,,celebrate St George’s Day etc

  82. John Owens says:

    Check out my English American facebook page and tells other English Americans about it. I really do appreciate it if any fellow English Americans can be the English American facebook page administrator because I haven’t gotten any increased activities and I don’t think I have accomplished much. In my assessment, I think the background information for the English American facebook page isn’t effective based on very little information.

  83. John Owens says:

    Did you check yours tweets?

  84. Barry says:

    whats your twitter name?

  85. Check out my English American facebook page and tell other English Americans about it. I really do appreciate it if any fellow English Americans can become the English American facebook page administrator because I haven’t gotten any increased activities and I don’t think I have accomplished much. In my assessment, I think the background information for the facebook page isn’t effective since I have very little information.

  86. John Owens says:

    Barry, I’ve sent the tweet regarding the English American facebook page to you directly and you should be able to see on the page.

  87. John William Owens says:

    I have an idea which came across my mind for a few hours and I thought about it deeply. If there is a possibility of an established, permanent English American organization called Task force White Dragon in the future, then the leader must a native born Englishman because he knows more about English culture and most likely has leadership qualities from his military experience. Better yet, how about more than one native born Englishman. I want to hear feedback on this potential idea.

  88. John William Owens says:

    List of English Americans who indirectly defended England’s honor:
    US Army, Union Army Gen. Winfield Scott Hancock ( English, Welsh and Irish blood) Deceased
    Union Army Gen. John Reynolds ( full blooded English american) ( deceased)
    Ulysses S. Grant First, US Army, Union Army general, president of the U.S.A (deceased) born Hiram Maxim Grant
    US Army, Union Army General Joseph Hooker ( deceased) (full blooded English American)
    Continental Army, US Army general George Washingston, 1st President of the USA ( full blooded english american)
    U.S. Army, Confederate States Army General Longstreet ( Half Dutch american, Half English american)
    Thomas Jefferson ( america’s founding father and third president of the U.S.A.) ( Half Scottish, half English)
    U.S. Army, Confederate States Army General Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson ( deceased)( Half Scots-Irish, half English American)
    U.S. Army, Confederate States Army General John Bell “Sam” Hood ( deceased)

    USMC Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock Vietnam War veteran, MOS Designated Marksman (deceased)

  89. John Owens says:

    List of English Americans who indirectly defended England’s honor: (part 2)
    Union Army Gen. Samuel Zook (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (deceased)
    Union Army Col. Rufus Dawes ( deceased) ( descendant of Dawes, the first American rider who worked with Paul Revere)
    Union Army Col. Thomas Chamberlain (deceased) ( younger sibling of Joshua Chamberlain)
    Abraham Lincoln (deceased) (President of the USA)
    Union Army Gen. Oliver Howard (deceased)
    Union Army Brevet Gen. Francis C. Barlow (deceased)
    Union Army Brigadier General Henry Bingham (deceased) (politician after his military service)
    Union Army Brigadier Gen. Luther Prentice Bradley (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. John Buford (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. Napoleon Bonaparte Buford ( deceased) (brother of John Buford)
    Union Army Gen. Hiram Burnham (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. John C. Caldwell (deceased) (military service, U.S. Ambassador)(diplomat)
    Union Army Gen. Henry B. Carrington (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. Abner Doubleday (deceased)
    U.S. Army Col., Union Army Brevet Gen. George Custer ( deceased) (half German American and half english american)
    U.S. Army, Union Army Gen. Amos Beebe Eaton (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. Elon Jon Farnsworth (deceased)
    Union Army Gen. James Abraham Garfield ( military service, congressman, 20th President of the USA)
    U.S. Army, Union Army Gen. Schuyler Hamilton (deceased) (Grandson of Alexander Hamilton)
    U.S. Army, Union Gen. Alfred Pleasonton (deceased)

  90. John William Owens says:

    English American wiki is currently up and operating. Please check it out and the website URL is http://english-american.wikia.com/wiki/English_American_Wiki

  91. John Owens (silver fire echo) says:

    Recently, I’ve started my own wordpress blog and I need all the help I can get from my English American brothers. Here is the link: http://englishamerica578845.wordpress.com/
    So far, I haven’t created a post yet and I’m connected to twitter.

  92. twobells says:

    The English-Americans under-count is very well known among demographers and due entirely to the 2000 Census which added a new category ‘American’ for whatever reason, subsequently nearly 28 million English-Americans (28% of all Americans) ticked the new box because they consider themselves essentially indigenous.

    • Great!…so all those who were from England are now hidden…how on earth can this happen..

      • twobells says:

        It has never been fully explained as to why the US government decided to add the ‘American’ category in 2000 as there are no indigenous natives outside of the Native American group who already have a category; however, the consequences were tremendous in that suddenly millions of English-Americans; a HUGE number actually (28% of the entire population!) just disappeared from the stats leading to the farcical situation whereby you have German-Americans and others being listed as the ‘largest ethnic groups’ when that couldn’t be further from the truth. We now have a bizarre situation where the largest ethnic group and the people who settled America have essentially disappeared.
        If a person was paranoid they might suggest statistical genocide as in the wiping out of the English and to a lesser extent British American from the history of the nation.

      • Thats how it appears..is this due to a massive Irish influx with the backdrop to Northern Ireland and the fact that America started to resent Britain’s and the English former Empire,? Its no secret before WW1 and WW2 the US were reluctant to help due to their envy…is this another indirect nail in the English coffin?

      • twobells says:

        There has been hostility and Anglophobia from a few American ethnic communities towards America’s positive relationship with England, mainly Irish and Jewish; the Irish-Americans disgracefully supported the IRA and Jewish-Americans used the entertainment industry from 1970 onwards to demonize the English. Actually, it is quite fascinating to see how the American film and tv industry moved from a positive position on England and the English people to one of suppressed contempt; see how the American accent changes over 35 years from the quintessential British ‘transatlantic’ accent (up to around 1965) to a broad, heavy inflection which continues to this day.

      • I never understand the Irish thing and have never understood NORAID or why any people in a new land would want to support mass murder on the people that gave them the land they stand on..happily cheering when British soldiers were blown up..makes no sense to me at all, never has?. I wouldnt support people in Gibraltar blowing up the Spanish..and I have closer links to the people their..its a British Overseas Territory….what I really dont get is why an obviously Jewish based entertainment industry both here and in US would want to demonise the English when it was the English that helped them so much in the war against Germany..can someone explain that ?

    • Daizinwolf says:

      The ‘American’ category included all of the Southern Celts: Welsh, Irish, Scots-Irish. It also included those who don’t know their ancestry and some with several ethnicities.

      The Northern English checked English during the 2000 Census.

      • Jez Walsh Patters says:

        I think you are right there Daizinwolf. The American category is far broader than people assume. I do know at least three people who checked American in 2000; one is French the other two are Korean. As for the southern Celts it is largely a myth. Let me correctly say overblown. Most populations in the south we the extension of the populations in Georgia, the Carolinas,Virginia, West Virginia and Kentucky. As far as i have been able to dig as far as the early 1800 when the expansion southward and west was gearing on, communities that came southwards were primarily derived from the peoples in these seven states. According to census records dating back from those times the communities there were descended from the English and lowland Scots frontiersman who settled in those states. I am saying this because i have challenged and won on several folks who claim to be scotch Irish and welsh. I have challenged my former school teacher who claimed for years that he was scotch-Irish and to his disappointment it turned out his ancestors settled in Virginia from Cumberland England as farm hands in the 1750s. He hand one line ancestry from Dundee Scotland. Most people don’t understand what scotch Irish means or is. The Celtic ancestry claim is highly exaggerated in the south. Another thing, ethnic self reporting is high inconsistent and inaccurate. Most people tend to claim by immediate association. I guess thats why the question was never repeated in 2010 census. By records the state of Tennessee is supposed to be one of the most English in the south but it isn’t by self reporting.

      • Daizinwolf says:

        “The Celtic ancestry claim is highly exaggerated in the south.”

        ‘The League of the South’ claims Celts are predominant in the South. That appears to be an assumption not based on studies.

        “I guess thats why the question was never repeated in 2010 census.”

        2010 Census may be worse considering Europeans in this country are now classified as non-Hispanic Whites. I consider that a slam as we are seen as not having ancestries. It’s as if the Bureau wants to erase our English and other European history. The non-Hispanic White category includes Hispanics who wrongly call themselves White, Middle Eastern Caucasians, and Jews who consider themselves White.

        The Census Bureau needs a category for Europeans broken down into countries as it had done years ago. For those unaware of their ancestry, a checkbox next to European. ‘American’ tells us nothing because all born here could think of themselves as ‘Americans.’

        It’s interesting my county sent a supplement form in 2010 requesting ancestry. It’s obviously an issue they consider important.

        I’m curious as to why the Northern English and Irish checked their ancestries. Why is there a difference? Many of the Northern English (Northeast) moved to the Midwest after the Civil War, and indicated they were English on the 2000 Census as did those living in the Northeast. They, too, could think of themselves as indigeneous, but didn’t check ‘American.’ You probably saw the 2000 Census Bureau Map where it clearly shows pockets of Northern English in the Midwest and Northeast.

        Considering our declining birthrate and percentage caused by massive numbers of non-European immigrants, knowing the numbers of our ancestries, even more so, how many Europeans in the country, is extremely important to me. We are losing representation in our own government…and losing our country.

      • It seems you are going to have to fight for your rights and the right to be classed as Anglo Americans or English Americans..stand up and fight the rest of them do you have just as much if not more rights to America considering your relatives founded her and gave America her laws, government,language and many other things besides..yet we are ignored!!

        Its about time America’s history was respected not shunned because they have moved on…if America fails to preserve her history she will be destined to repeat her mistakes closer links to England and honoring her history will help prevent this.

    • John William Owens says:

      You should consider making a contribution to English American wiki, but it is only a recommendation.

      • twobells says:

        I do, I am a long-time Wikipedia editor, I contribute to the English-Americans wiki as well as the US Census, Race and ethnicity in the United States, Demographics of the United States and German-Americans articles.

      • twobells says:

        I do, I am a long-time Wikipedia editor, I contribute to the English-Americans Wikipedia page as well as the US Census, Race and ethnicity in the United States, Demographics of the United States and German-Americans articles. I tend to point out that the English-Americans stats are a serious undercount according to all demographers.

      • John William Owens says:

        I failed to mention that I had a English American wikia page and the url is http://english-american.wikia.com/wiki/English_American_Wiki. Besides that, I believe I had given the English wiki when I was supposed to mention english american wikia.com

      • twobells says:

        Ah! okay, I’ve found it and will contribute to the article.

  93. twobells says:

    ”I have challenged my former school teacher who claimed for years that he was scotch-Irish and to his disappointment it turned out his ancestors settled in Virginia from Cumberland England as farm hands in the 1750s.’

    Strange, I don’t understand why he would be disappointed, as a top US politician once said: the American people were supremely fortunate in that they were descended from the most successful nation in the world; the top of the tribal food chain, their forefathers, the English.

    • Their you go!! Use this as your mantra…use this to show those whom say being English is not a good thing..show the American people that England is the motherland of your nation and should be duly respected.

    • John William Owens says:

      Anyways, I was going to recommend that you should create your own wordpress blog and if you are interested, I could send an email message with Microsoft Word Document titled Sample Piece this week.

  94. I was suprised to learn very recently, that the English pilgrims who landed on the coast of the new world, were originally destined for the Netherlands. Amsterdam initially but later Leiden! After the threat of a Catholic invasion on Dutch soil by the Spanish, our protestant pilgrims fled on board a boat which nearly sank in the English channel, but thankfully they caught the Mayflower and the rest as they say is history! Leiden actually contains many Dutch nationals with English ancestry as many of the English pilgrims married Dutch citizens… Some of these took Thanksgiving with them as a celebration of thanks to god for the collapsed invasion of the Netherlands by Spain! All Saints day is also a tradition taken by English, Scottish and Irish immigrants along with Mothering Sunday which was uniquely English in origin.

  95. This article by the BBC is a very informative read which also happens to be totally free of the emotional bias of American or British opinions. It certainly makes you realise that without jealousy from other budding empires, the colonists would certainly have remained under British rule for a lot longer AND without doubt, been granted their independence without any need to fight for it.


    • Indeed….hope the whole of the US reads this..

    • Jez Walsh Patters says:

      Well, this Holmes fellow has just made my American history lessons that i held so remarkably dear seem like a propaganda. He is not the first though; there is an Irish guy called Collins who indicated the same thing. Collins onces said the American war of independence piece sound like a bloated bag with holes on the underside. In short he meant it was full of gaps and exaggerations and oversimplifications. Thats how he explained it and left me scratching may head. This was an Irish guy who came here on a teaching program and i thought how could he. I did ask a former college professor though who seemed to agree with Collins by had no time to explain it to me. Now it looks like the BBC piece from Holmes might be giving a balanced perspective on the American war of independence after all. Its news to me that is took so many years to reach climax and the fact that it was a civil war and the issues were unrelated to independence when it started. I guess they were trying to turn a makeshift general into superman and boy they succeeded. Assuming this piece is true; why would our government spent so much money on teaching 18th century propaganda to succeeding generations to this day. I thought history is supposed to reflect the times or is it? Well, what can i say? its good to know.

  96. John William Owens says:

    Anyways, I thought of a joke that might be humorous and I’m aware it might not be humorous at all. I’ll say it right now before I lose that thought.

    At the rate of speed which the English American blog is growing, there could be a secret creation of an English American brotherhood.

  97. twobells says:

    ‘At the rate of speed which the English American blog is growing, there could be a secret creation of an English American brotherhood.’ A special relationship even?

    • I hope so..can someone start something up , what would we call it? How would it work?

      • John Owens says:

        The idea of a secret English American brotherhood seems to be a very far future idea and so called joke or not, I don’t have a structure to build on. English America is very scattered and broken into pieces.

        Also, I’ve made a promise to myself to somehow send a microsoft word document titled sample piece to mpbaz and twobells. Lastly, I have a wordpress blog and I rather have a hearsay on my sample piece before posting as my first blog.

      • John you dont have to lead on this its open ended. Secret who said anything about secret?…John their are many willing hands here….lets wait to see who stands up and takes it on.

  98. John Owens says:

    Anyways, I think a sneak preview of my microsoft word document titled sample piece should be shown and sadly, my time was spent into a summer college course. I didn’t have a chance to jump start early on my sample piece utilising microsoft word and here is the sneak preview.

    Sample Piece

    Prior to waking up my English American spirit, I was deeply interested in Britain’s involvement in the American Civil War and learned very little until I came across a blog titled Where are the English Americans?. After that, I learned that the UK had only provided war materials and ships to the Confederate States of America, but also remain neutral in the conflict. Two years, my interest had not disappeared and learned from a few websites which I’d lost tabs and one folder due to mandatory updated versions on palemoon portable browser. Those few websites indicated that Great Britain was divided just as much as the USA, but somehow remain stablised. A female British author (can’t remember her name) wrote a book about Britain’s minor involvement with the American Civil War and her reason for writing the book was partly because either her father was American and attending college courses here in the USA. A British online news website (forgotten the name) had an article on Britain’s involvement in the ACW and had explained that 50,000 English born natives, some Welsh native born persons and a few Irish native born persons enlisted in either the US Army (Union Army) and Confederate Army and fought against each other.

    Goodness gracious, why did my early English cousins have to get involved as either Union Army troopers or Confederate troopers? (just joking or maybe not humorous)

    • I also read a brilliant article recently which shed light on the British taxation of the colonists, the thorn in the side which is always portrayed as the greedy brutal British, robbing the poor settlers; they were trying to get them to pay for their own defences and protection from impending Spanish and French invasion. The British Isles were at breaking point, taxing far flung colonies seems quite logical in order to help safeguard their protection! If anything it showed the British determination to speed up self reliance rather than the new world becoming a parasite on the mother land. Its exactly what the French did in Africa and the Spanish in the new world. Our former Englishmen in America obviously had other ideas!

  99. twobells says:

    Yes, most definitely and especially by the Irish who have always hated the English irrespective of the fact that most of their problems stem from their own attitudes and incompetence rather than their lazy attempt to blame others.

  100. John William Owens says:

    I’m still contemplating on whether or not, I should post a sample regarding my historical interest on the ACW directly on my blogsite. Besides that, I will shown you a sneak preview of the next sample piece.

    A Call for An English American Brotherhood

    In the very far, far future, a creation of an English American Brotherhood seem to be more actionable and a joint correlation between English Americans and our elder English cousins will take place by then. Why not create and start an English American Brotherhood in 2014 or 2015? It’s not actionable and English America is scattered and isn’t repairable yet. I understand the position that my elder English cousins propose regarding the year 2014 or 2015 as actionable, but the culture here is very much anti-English and another issue not discussed is unity. What of unity among all English Americans? Most English Americans remain in denial and yet difficult to persuade.

    America’s condition could be this opportunity to awaken more English Americans, but I’d remain cautious because they will either resist or consider your efforts a joke or a threat to their so called American culture. (second paragraph not yet completed and I’m somewhat lost)

    The motto of the English American Brotherhood is: For Honor and Service to the Mother Country. What this means is basically your accomplishments in science, politics, military, music and art are considered an indirect service to England, the mother country, The honor that you have proven as an English American is directed to the mother country and yourself.

  101. John William Owens says:

    This comment is directly to TwoBells and it is quite brief. Jake Gyllenhaal and Maggie Gyllenhaal (brother and sister) are of partial Swedish, English and Jewish ancestry and basically, both of them are English Americans.

    • Personally, even after the war of independence, i think America has failed to culturally become an identity, to this day i believe the American people are suffering and identity crisis! My great great grandfather on my fathers side was Scandinavian, he married a Scot, my mothers side however is English to the bone! Yet i do not feel the need to hyphenate my ancestry, i was born in Great Britain, therefore i am British! My ancestry is what my background and heritage was, what i am now is British! Americans should do the same, born in the US, you are American! Why feel the need to tag on your heritage?! If you are a proud American you would say, i am American! And that would be that! Where you are from is irrelavent! Practice your cultural rights, respect your heritage, but at least have faith in your identity and country of birth! I know i do! English, Scot, Norwegian heritage born in England makes me a British citizen, and thats all i say, i am British

      • John William Owens says:

        (Archie Thomson) What did you think of my sample piece titled A Callling for An English American Brotherhood?

      • I thought it was an interesting read. Something needs to be done, we have millions of Americans with English ancestry walking round as if spaceships dropped them onto the ‘new continent’ and thus a society was born! I cant decide wether most are just plain stupid or very ignorant?! But then thats what decades of brainwashing and hatred does for you. If most Americans were allowed to actually study their English ancestors, like the kids in other commonwealth countries, they might well make some fascinating discoveries and open up their minds to a whole new world! Because life for most Americans did not begin on the day of Independence… It began when the first European settlers crossed a small newly formed channel and settled what then would become an nation called Britannia, Britain or Britanae… As white people of British decent they would learn how that people faught off successive invasion, succumbed to mass immigration and eventually would over come persecution to settle new lands in the West, America. How sad that one arm of the English ancestral
        empire has been denied such history, in the vain attempt to forge a total new identity, one that cancels out and erases all traces of where it came from. How very sad indeed.

      • Doughty says:

        You have to take into consideration Archie that many Americans do not have an identity crisis and identify as American only, such as myself. Our country most certainly was founded on Anglo-Saxon culture and principles, but most of the immigrants who came from Britain wanted to escape the English monarchy and system of government. Therefore many Americans who are a mixture of English, Scottish, Welsh, German, and many other Northern European ethnic groups have cut their ties to Europe and now consider themselves ethnically American. The Anglo Saxons did the same thing roughly 400 years after they invaded England.

        We have also had a problem with high nonwhite immigration into the United States since the 1960s. This has led many white Americans to hyphenating themselves In order to separate from these other ethnic groups. Fortunately there are some 20 million people who consider themselves just American, this is four times the population of Scotland and half the population of England so that’s still a pretty big number. If you type in American ethnicity in Google you will see that the largest majority of people that identify as American come from the Appalachians and Ohio River region. My ancestors have been in this country for over 400 years and I believe that that is long enough to consider myself just American. If it’s good enough for the Anglo-Saxons then it’s good enough for me.

        Proud American

      • Doughty its ok to say your American and only American what many like myself and Archie and others do not like is that Englishness and Britishness but particularly Englishness is not being admitted or even mentioned its like we didnt exist and only America existed..what irks me more is other nations are mentioned..Africa, Ireland,Scotland and Italy to name four are all regularly mentioned with America as well how many say proudly we are Anglo-American we have English heritage? It seems since independence everyone who did have English blood kept their mouth shut and head down, but like you say its been 400 years since Americas birth and thats time enough to become American and so since the time passed since independence is enough for those who are English to say ‘I;m English and proud!’ dont you think? Its all we ask..America please acknowledge your motherland just once in a while not just on 4th July

    • Doughty says:

      As a history major I think it is well known that the English created America. There is no American historian in their right mind who would deny that. But you seem to be saying you want Americans to claim their Englishness, but that is like asking an Anglo Scot such as an Armstrong or a Graham (both Anglo-Saxon surnames) to declare their Englishness because their border culture was Anglo Saxon. No proud Scot in his right mind would call himself English even if every single one of his ancestors were Northumbrian Anglo Saxons. Our problem is not absence of self reporting English-Americans, it is the fact that white Americans feel the need to hyphenate themselves at all. We are Anglo Saxon cousins, but we are no longer English.

      Archie was bad mouthing the Germans on this board because of WW2 yet he must forget that his ancestors originally came from Northern Germany. Beside what happened to Germany during WW1 was despicable and I can very well understand why they were angry and ready for WW2. Thank the German for the automobile (Benz) , the four lane highway, and rockets that led to space travel.

      • You saw stonehenge:) What did you think? I know it takes my breath away maybe its just me but to me its a magical place , shame you never saw the west country(Cornwall,Devon,Dorset,Somerset) as they have some of Englands finest landscapes although the cotswolds and the lake district do compare..next time please bee line for Cornwall and Devon..it will take your breath away I assure you.

      • It maybe well known nobody is denying its not well known thats not the same as acknowledging it though is it? Their is a big difference between knowing your say irish and actually showing you are or have that heritage…I give you St Patricks Day in America and then I ask where is St George’s Day? Does celebrating either make you less American? No..so why the absence of celebrating England but the over the top celebrations of being Irish?

      • Excuse me but my ancestors came from these very islands! Britonic Celts! Why do Americans refer to anything English as Anglo-Saxon?! The English are an amalgamation of varying native and non native peoples. Norse, Danish, Celtic, Romany, Hispanic… It goes on. The Anglo Saxons may have ruled the majority of what is now England after Roman rule, however the Normans (Nordic origin!) had the biggest cultural impact on these lowlands and also a presence in the peoples very DNA.

        My father is Scottish who could trace his ancestry back to the era of William Wallace, my mother English (Welsh & Cumbrian actually!) though born in Cheshire. As for bad mouthing Germans, i was merely making the point that many Americans demonise and deny anything ‘English’ whilst sharing no such hatred of a race who annihilated the peoples of Europe to the extreme, only 70 years ago! So please, stop thinking all English are Anglo Saxon because they most certainly are not! It has been scientifically proven that English DNA still holds a good percentage of Britonic DNA which can be traced back to the first wave of migrants to these lands from northern Spain along with Scandinavian DNA and those from the Germanic tribes. England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales; the peoples of these lands are of a mixed bag of DNA. As for the culture, it is more akin to those of the Normans

      • Germany ..you want to thank them? I dont..of course we had some immigration here but its a myth for people to believe we didnt have original settlers here because we did in that they were British not celt or norse or saxon but brit tribes…http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml

    • Doughty says:

      Actually I do believe that celebrating St. Patrick’s day is pretty unAmerican. I get very annoyed with Americas Plastic Paddies, and in all honesty wish they would go back to Ireland since they love it so much. I have read that more people celebrate St. Patrick’s day in England than they do St. George’s day. To me that is very sad. I would prefer if America didn’t celebrate any Saints days seeing as how we were founded on protestantism.

      • John Owens says:

        I have a recommendation and you can choose to say yes or no either way. How about creating a blog on either tumblr or wordpress? (Note: If I didn’t say this now, I might have failed to say such encouragement.) Another recommendation which I had in mind was create an active twitter account and keep in contact with our English cousins. Either way, I’m just saying this now because I might have forgotten to mention this later.

      • I do see your point and i view it similarly problem is many in US dont see it like that, in fact the US was founded under the cross of St George and is deeply christian and protestant just like England was at the time and surely is now..we have the same problem in that we have many Irish folk living here especially in England and they have mixed with the English and have cause such a rumpus over celebrating St Patricks that they actually get it funded by the mayor…St George’s day gets nothing, btw its not actually about the saints anymore its the principle of it its like another kick in the teeth for the English its more about celebrating being English or Irish and like you said if you love Ireland so much YOUR FREE TO LEAVE AND STAY THEIR…I would prefer it if America celebrated its culture and not the culture of those that gave so little to modern America.

      • I do see your point and i view it similarly problem is many in US dont see it like that, in fact the US was founded under the cross of St George and is deeply christian and protestant just like England was at the time and surely is now..we have the same problem in that we have many Irish folk living here especially in England and they have mixed with the English and have cause such a rumpus over celebrating St Patricks that they actually get it funded by the mayor…St George’s day gets nothing, btw its not actually about the saints anymore its the principle of it its like another kick in the teeth for the English its more about celebrating being English or Irish and like you said if you love Ireland so much YOUR FREE TO LEAVE AND STAY THEIR…I would prefer it if America celebrated its culture and not the culture of those that gave so little to modern America.

    • Doughty says:

      As a History major I am aware of everything you have said though I disagree with the Norman DNA aspect. DNA is a very touchy subject for two non geneticist to talk about. I have seen various studies that show that the Anglo Saxons and Danes contributed the most to England’s “Germanic” DNA if it can be called that, not the Normans. Also Britannic-Celt is not a DNA type, R1b has been in the islands far longer than the Celts. The English are culturally Western Germanic and that mostly comes from the Anglo Saxons. I have read the Blood of the Isles and I am aware of the neolithic R1b genetic component in England. Funny thing R1b is also found in Germany so arguing about DNA is silly because there are no clear or precise answers as of yet.

      The Anglo Saxon culture is the foundation for English culture. Both of your first and last names are Germanic in origin not Celtic, the English language is West Germanic with a Latin twist, let’s face it English culture is closer to the Dutch and Germans than Celts or French. Otherwise I have been lied to by every single history professor that has taught me English history. My thesis paper will need to be rewritten as well.

      • dna like you say is a touchy subject but what i can say is this Europe was once many kingdoms as was England ..France was called France after the Germanic tribe the Francs so how French are the French? However that aside once we split from Europe and defined our own culture and language just like the people of Europe have and to some extent Scotland,Wales and the Cornish..that said being English is different to being Scottish and Welsh, due to our customs, dialect and way we are..DNA does not really mean much because if your born with certain DNA but brought up in a certain way you will naturally be that way regardless of DNA..so your saying their is not any definate ‘English’ DNA then only European..so that must be true for the Portugese..and other peoples of countries around Europe.

      • Ok, how can i say this without being rude; i am from these islands and have studied our history since birth under our own educational system which i dare say, will be a lot more inclusive and all consuming than anything taught in foreign country. Certainly at MSc level! And You miss my point totally; first of all let it be said that i identify as British given that my father was from Dumfries in Scotland and my mother from Chester in England. Second to say that all Anglo Saxon peoples who invaded these shores AFTER Roman rule, merely stayed within their own population and culture is wrong. The Romans left in legions but they intermingled with the native Britons during the many decades they were here. Many took native partners and even took to worshipping local gods sacred to local Celtic populations. The same happened with the Anglo Saxons, Jutes, Danes and Vikings… These populations didnt settle this land and stay within their own genetic and cultural compounds! They intermingled with the existing melting pot and even took on the newcomers languages and laws whilst dispersing their own! For example, names. My great great grandfather on my mothers side was called Neville, a Norman name. My mother can actually trace her ancestry back to northern France! And yet her grand mothers maiden name was Pinnock, a true Celtic name of Cornish origin and i remember her speaking Cornish!. And yet to an outsider, we are English? Or, Anglo-Saxon?! Wrong! you see, to say the peoples of England are pure Anglo Saxon and the over riding culture Anglo-Saxon is rubbish! The name is just that, a name to give white English an identity. The UK has been subject to more mass imigration than anywhere else in Europe over millenia, and those populations over the course of time interbred and swapped culture with each other until we finally got to where we are today. Studies both genetic and of our culture prove that what you see today, is more akin to a melting pot of cultures and languages which show us as very different population both culturally and genetically from our European neighbours. True, Welsh, Cornish and Scots Gaelic are languages distinct to those former Celtic strongholds, but within their own culture due to land border changes, are remnants of all cultures which shaped these lands. Studies over time have proven beyond a doubt that Anglo-Saxon name coinage is just that, and Anglo-Saxon culture is just one part of a bigger picture when it comes to labelling or pinning down the very essence of what it means to be English.

        Being English actually means being a very mixed bag! Both culturally and genetically! The same xan also be said of the Scottish and Welsh but to a lesser extent. Its why the English have a harder time celebrating and identifying with who they are, certainly more so than say, the Welsh or Cornish. The lineage isnt as pure or focused on one culture or group of peoples. When the Normans invaded and later the Vikings, they changed Anglo Saxon presence here beyond all recognition. The language of the Normans and Scandinavian countries altered not only the population but also its culture. Those changes can be seen in language, place names and im afraid to say, our DNA. You may scof at DNA being of value but scientists in the 2000’s didn’t conclude with such a sweeping statement of irrelavence! It helped them to map the very make up of our islands. The cultural stuff? Well thats a result of a lot of cultures! Not just one. Being English, means being mixed race! Whether they you or i like it or not.

      • Geordie Mike says:

        Thank you Doughty! It annoys me so much when Social Marxists use “cultural hegemony” to try and tell us that people only started speaking English because they liked the sound of the language. It’s even worse when so many people are ready to accept this complete and utter nonsense. I haven’t actually heard anybody else speak up about it, I’ve been wondering why no one speaks up for ages. How easy it is for these wretches to twist our history

  102. I have an English American blogsite on wordpress and read the first posting.

  103. Doughty says:

    I just realized I had a conversation with you Barry a few years back on this exact same board. Since that time I have visited England and Scotland just last summer. I must say it was an absolutely fantastic trip. The English and the Scottish are such friendly and polite people. If hypothetically I could live in any other country in the world, it would be in some small valley near the Anglo Scottish border.

    • Doughty says:

      The only unfortunate part about England was that while in London I often felt like I was in Pakistan. I would see more Muslims on the subway in many instances than white people, and had the unfortunate opportunity to see several Muslims protesting against the British government during the whole Israel situation back in July. Many were shouting “death to the west, democracy must die,” and other such unsightly phrases.

    • London has been changed so much that true londoners including myself are leaving in their droves, so please do not judge London as an example of England its sadly not. I am glad you would live here and felt welcome when you came because you are very much welcome to visit. Where did you visit when here ?

      • Doughty says:

        From Dover to Inverness and everywhere in between. I would say that the city of York and the Scottish border region were my favorite part of the island. The highlands of Scotland were beautiful, but it is in the region of old Northumbria where I felt most at home. I live in the rolling Appalachian hills of Ohio, and the Anglo Scottish border felt like the land that I had grown up on.

  104. Did you visit Cornwall,Devon or Dorset? Stonehenge, Chichester, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Bristol? York is supposed to be fantastic especially its cathedral and its old world streets..I do know Northumbria is cold and very hilly/mountainous and I have heard Scotland has some gorgeous scenery..your very lucky to have gone.

    • Doughty says:

      I did see Stonehenge and Bath. As well as Dover, Canterbury, the Cotswalds, Oxford, and Warwick. Dover and Warwick castles are spectacular, a fine feat of Norman engineering I must say. Hadrians wall and Alnwick Castle are also amazing.

  105. You saw stonehenge:) What did you think? I know it takes my breath away maybe its just me but to me its a magical place , shame you never saw the west country(Cornwall,Devon,Dorset,Somerset) as they have some of Englands finest landscapes although the cotswolds and the lake district do compare..next time please bee line for Cornwall and Devon..it will take your breath away I assure you.

  106. twobells says:

    Guys, I’ve just been able to find the US 2010 census scan for ‘race’ check it out, notice which race is missing entirely from suggestions?

    You have Germans and Irish but nowhere do you have the race that settled America and made up more than 63% of the 1980 census (if you count British as well as English)
    Without a doubt it looks like there is definitely a drive to commit statistical genocide probably based on either discrimination or bias. If I was an American I would demand to know exactly what the the Census Bureau was up to especially leading with Germans and Irish who make up a much smaller percentage of immigrants.
    I believe it might be connected to Robert Hendersons ‘The Treason of Liberals’:

    (drop down to the sub heading ‘The Treason of Liberals’)

    Essentially Henderson says that if you are a white English Anglo Saxon look out.

  107. Doughty says:

    I wanted to see more of “Wessex,” but it is a bit out of the way to get down there. Next time I’ll will try to make it there. I wasn’t able to see the Lake District either so that is also still in my list for the next visit. I would also like to see East Anglia, I have many ancestors from there as well.

    • East Anglia is very flat and very wet like the cotswolds in a way but its known for the fens a bit like floridas keys but smaller where they have reed beds etc..Portsmouth is only and hour from London and 30-40 mins from stonehenge though

  108. John Owens says:

    Although I’m not active in on this topic all the time, my brother one day told me that his superior boss at his workplace was once a British immigrant before becoming an American citizen and the irony is that my brother unintentionly admitted that there is a connection between England and America. However, he didn’t care about this and passed it off as unimportant. Be the win, thank you England and if you English cousins want to live in a retire phase in America, then by all means, come on over.

  109. John good idea about the twitter account who will run it?

    • John Owens says:

      The four individuals who should be considered to operate a new twitter account regarding the English American topic are me, Dougthy and Archie which requires sharing the same username and password among them. Only if there is a complete agreement on who does what on which category. Also if necessary, other trustworthy english cousins or/and english american “siblings” could share access to this twitter account. In a few short words, this is a team effort and I’m terrible at spreading the word so to speak and lack a few skills.

      • John Owens says:

        Before completing an agreement should it happen, all participants who will eventually utilise the new twitter account must figure out what the username and password and both element must be very private as if it was a secret society.

  110. Doughty says:

    Hello John
    While I would be honored to be a part of a twitter account I have never used it. I am much more active on tumblr, and actually have my own blog labeled American Nativist with roughly 1,000 followers. It is a very politically incorrect blog, as I am very conservative in my political beliefs and I am vehemently anti immigration in my views. It is a mixture of American/European appreciation, culture, politics, and women. Warning it is NSFW, for there are some graphic wartime images as well tastefully nude models. http://american-nativist.tumblr.com/

    • John Owens says:

      I”m waiting for Archie and Mpbaz (Barry) to chime in on an agreement and the main purpose is to work together on the English American topic because I lack a few skills and I’m terrible at spreading the word. This idea came into existence because I felt that I never did enough and was always lacking something. Lastly, thank you very much and I am honored as well for your contribution. When the username and password is created based on agreement, then all four of us will share the same information and contribute together as one voice.

      • Doughty says:

        While I do spread the word about our Anglo American culture. I am not sure I would make the best spokesman for this cause. You are right that Americans are unaware of their cultural heritage, but like most Americans I don’t personally think of myself as English either. I have ancestors from all over Northern Europe and a few American Indian ancestors as well, I think of myself as American only. And it seems that Archie and I can’t even agree on what it means to be English. I could try and help out, but most of my attention in life is focused on school and spreading American patriotism.

      • John Owens says:

        I respect your stance on the subject matter and you are absolutely welcome to use the new twitter account when I actually set it up. I value you like a English American brother, but it sounds very weird at the same time. However, It is important to act as one unified voice and this is where I need the assistance of my English cousins and English American relatives. I’m not against American patriotism because it is just as important as maintaining a connection to the mother country.

        I will need your email address because I will give you the new username and password for the new twitter account when the time is right and I made a promise.

  111. twobells says:

    John, don’t forget to give the rest of us the Twitter and Facebook links, thanks.
    Signed, your English brother.

    • John Owens says:

      Thank you and I appreciate that.

    • John Owens says:

      There has been a change of plans and I felt that it was vital to establish a new twitter account as soon I can. Now all I require is your email address and then you will recieve the username and password, but I have to be cryptic about the information when it is sent over to avoid any intrusion. I hope this crazy idea of mines really works out.

    • John Owens says:

      Here is the new twitter account ENGAMRCNBRTHHD and I cannot give out the password though for security reasons unless there is a way to tell you otherwise.

  112. Doughty says:

    I thought y’all might be interested in knowing that I did my final thesis paper this semester on how the British, Indians, and black slaves, were the foundation for our culture. I guess part of the reason I’m not 100% on board with this English/American project is because the Indians and black slaves really did change our culture into a distinctly and unique American culture. In fact it was because of the American interaction with the Indian tribes that allowed us to win the Revolutionary War. While the British were lining up in nice neat rows to fight us, we took a page from the Indian rule book and used the land and natural cover to win the war.

    I’m not sure if this has been mentioned already on this board, but America truly was founded on for unique British migrations prior to the American revolution. The Puritans settled in New England creating there more democratic and liberal society they originally hailed from East Anglia. The Quakers settled in Pennsylvania creating a more tolerant and open society they hailed from the Yorkshire area and created the midlands culture in America. The third wave originally coming from southern England were known as wealthy cavaliers, they eventually created the wealthy slave owning society along the coastal south of United States. And the final group where the Ulster Scots who were dominantly Anglo-Saxon in culture, English in language and Protestant in religion and were pushed to the back country hills of Appalachia because of their wild and unruly culture. They were a product of hundreds of years border warfare between England and Scotland, and they created over one third of the rebel army during the Revolution, and were also known as great Indian fighters. They eventually created the hillbilly culture we know today in America. I can proudly say that I grew up in the culture that was created by the Ulster Scots.

    • Im pretty certain if history serves me well, the French and Spanish both played a HUGE part in the colonists victory and eventual independence over the ruling motherland! Without the support of both the French and Spanish fleets, not to mention munitions and blockades, North America’s history would be decidely a very different one! Sure, inevitably the colony would have become an independent state, but the longer duration spent under the mother lands wing, would have meant big changes and altered outcomes for those who settled the north from these lands. As for the whole anti English thing, its a almost like a learned custom in America. When i visited New England years ago, and went aboard the replica Mayflower in Plymoth, they were talking about the pilgrims as if they wernt English, so i challenged the tour guide, shecwas stunned to hear an English accent! I stated that the people who settled the land in the 1600’s, were my ancestors too! The silence was deafening! Until one American tourist from New Jersey claimed her ancestors came from Norfolk in East Anglia… And then the mood changed, it warmed a little until the whole ship started discussing their British links… I finnished by stating that “you wouldnt be you, your great nation if it were not for the British pilgrims and English outcasts who braved the open sea and set foot on this soil hundreds of years ago”. And they actually embraced it, i think!

      • Well said Archie, well said my fellow patriot, my brother…I wish America had more like you.

      • Doughty says:

        Of course you’re right Archie that the Spanish and French helped us during the Revolutionary war, and don’t forget those Germans! In fact there were quite a few German mercenary armies fighting on both sides of the revolution.

        I honestly think the whole anti-English thing comes in large part from so many Irish-Americans. You mentioned visiting New England, and New England was the place that received the most Irish immigrants after the famine. You also have to remember that the United States has large enclaves of ethnic groups living within its borders, and if you were to go to say Utah which is predominantly Mormon they are known for being proud of their English ancestry. I guess the bottom line is that many Americans deny their English culture in a similar way that you deny your Anglo-Saxon culture. The Anglo-Saxons were the foundation for England, but doesn’t not necessarily mean that all English are Anglo-Saxon. The English were the foundation for America but it doesn’t necessarily mean that all Americans are English.

      • Utah..are Mormon but in England we have very few of these and how do the UTAH Mormons portray their Englishness? We dont deny our Anglo-Saxon roots not at all our Queen is Saxon for christ sake so we hardly deny it when she is the head of state and head of our church,,,shame the US cant be in the commonwealth

      • Doughty says:

        You say the Anglo Saxons only played a small part in your history and that’s fine, but I know many historians that would disagree. I guess what I’m trying to say is that we are as English as you are Anglo-Saxon.

        And believe me I have grown up on this continent and have studied our history since birth, and I was taught under our educational system. As an American history major and an American I believe I am a little more knowledgeable about my history than you. The English were important to America but like the Anglo Saxons they only played an initial role in our founding. We are pretty deeply blended with Indian, African, and GERMAN cultures here in America.

      • With the greatest of respect, i am a European historian and teach British history at the University of Liverpool. I was educated under a system which pre dates your educational system by decades, in fact the majority of major Universities in North America (the north east mainly) were founded by English men under a system that mirrors those in Britain. But lets not get competative… Education isnt the only thing the British took with them to new world, laws, language ecen your flag was determined by Englishmen as the original 13 states mirrored those governed by the English.

        The founding fathers and majority of the eatly settlers to North America were English, with swathes of other Britons migrating there in the years that followed. In this time the British (from
        All over the UK) formed the foundations of your nation. Germans, Dutch, Scandinavian may have followed, but it was the British who founded America and left the greatest mark. The very basics of your society, the very foundations, are of British origin. As for ours, which in turn became yours, trust me, it is a melting pot of cultures spanning millenia. Ask me to point you to the literature and i most certainly will my friend…

      • Hold on that mirrored mine except i mentioned the state names and city names which are named after ours and the law system which mirrors ours , the universities founded by us and the language of course..the flag like you say is red white and blue too and the original one like you say reflected the 13 states..

      • Doughty says:

        Sorry mpaz I was quoting Archie

        “And yet to an outsider, we are English? Or, Anglo-Saxon?! Wrong! you see, to say the peoples of England are pure Anglo Saxon and the over riding culture Anglo-Saxon is rubbish! The name is just that, a name to give white English an identity. The UK has been subject to more mass imigration than anywhere else in Europe over millenia, and those populations over the course of time interbred and swapped culture with each other until we finally got to where we are today.”

        He seems to be denying the Anglo Saxon influence a little bit.

      • Doughty says:

        I could easily find historians who show that the United States is as mixed in culture as the English are. I’m sorry to tell this but the Germans influenced the United States a great deal. More than you are giving them credit for. In the county that I grew up in almost as many people speak German as a first or second language as English. The way American celebrate Christmas comes from the Germans. The Lutheran and Mennonite faiths which are very common in America came from the Germans. Much of the food we eat Hamburgers, hot dogs, etc etc come from the Germans. In fact schools in Cincinnati had to force children to stop speaking German in 1945! We still say gesundheit when somebody sneezes, and a lot of German phrases are used as well. So again we are about as English as you are Anglo Saxon.

      • Doughty says:

        There are almost as many Germans as there are British in American. That culture has changed us over the last 200 years. Not to the extent of the Normans in England, but maybe more like the Vikings. We Americans are a mix just like you English.

    • Ulster Scots…mmm now where in England/Scotland or Ulster where they supposed to be from exactly or are they from a range of places?…Its a shame a film is not made to show this..yourHistory is Ourhistory until indpendence..yes you have moved on and grown up as it were, but the worst thing any nation can do is FORGET its history we all know where ‘forgetting history’ leads to dont we?

      • Doughty says:

        America is like a cake the English and Ulster Scots make up the cake, while the black slaves and Indians make up the icing, and finally all the other cultures that came later are the sprinkles. You can easily have the cake without the sprinkles, but it would just be a little less colorful. Take away the icing and the cake becomes much less edible. Finally without the British there would be no cake at all, and that is America.

        The Ulster Scots honestly did not think of themselves as really English or Scottish although they were certainly Anglo Saxon in culture. Known for speaking their Germanic Scots language, but their alliances were with their families or clans. Often times clans such as the Graham’s or the Armstrong’s (both Anglo Norman surnames) would raid both sides of the border without thinking twice about nationality, it was all about clan ties. These are the people that created the hillbilly culture in the Appalachian Mountains, they created country music, bluegrass music, and even NASCAR. Words such as y’all, and log cabins also came from the Ulster Scots, and they have historically made up the largest percentage of Americans that have enlisted in the military throughout our history. Without the Ulster Scots we would have not won the Revolutionary war, and as a history major I can say this with certainty.

        Here are a couple maps:

      • I am surprised at the time of the empire and England taking America for its own that when we founded Virginia we had people living here that considered themselves neither Scottish or English ..thats rather odd..and a surprise to me

    • Denying? Thats a sweeping statement! To deny means to refuse or acknowledge, wrong. Read my comments again and you’ll hopefully see that i am merely making the point that ‘English’ means to be a mix of culture and peoples which span thousands of years. To understand this you have to be able to grasp the concept of time, a long time! Before the Saxons arrived, Britannia was ruled by huge populations of Celtic tribes who governed pretty much all of England, Wales and Scotland. They themselves lived in complex tribes and communities… When the Romans arrived they didnt just vanish or become killed off, they were enslaved, bartered or assimilated into the new order. Those that didnt either fled or withdrew to areas that at the time were remote ie Scotland, Cornwall etc. By the time the Saxons arrived, varying tribes from Spain had also settled and others from northern France. The Saxons gradually expanded west along with Jutes and Angles and Fresians. There is archeological evidence which proves beyond doubt that these cutlyres were all trading and interningling in more ways than one. And so it continued with the next wave of invaders, Normans and Vikings… This happened over thousands of years! To think these peoples all remained seperate and insular over those many many centuries is purely ridiculous, especially given the fact that the English language itself is indeed an amalgamation of many European languages.

      So nobody is ‘denying’ Anglo-Saxon heritage at all. As a Briton, i am saying that the English share their ancestry with every major wave of peoples that raided and settled these lands. Anglo-Saxon is purely a coinage term to give the English an identity. Over time that mixed bag became what the English are today. A mix of Celt, Jute, Norman, Roman, Nordic and Roman culture. Oh and DNA. But if you truly understood that then you’d truly understand the cast history of these very special islands

      • Doughty says:

        Listen Archie I agree with you on this. I am not unfamiliar with what you have written, but what I am saying is that we Americans are the same way. If you took DNA from every male in America it would come from all over Europe and the world. We are NOT English, although you have influenced us the more than most we certainly are not English. Just like you are not Anglo Saxon.

      • Doughty says:

        If you can not see that then you are being biased. The Germans, Africans, and Indians truly have influenced enough to no longer make us English.

      • Who said you are English? Lets rewind! This whole blog is about Americans not embracing their English’ lineage, heritage or cultural connection. What America is now, is nothing to do with what the point is i am trying to make; America was founded predominantly by peoples from Britain, the majority England. The British for a long time (short compared to Britains!) were the majority settlers and thus took up a large portion of the population. As that influx slowed and became replaced by others (Slavs, Poles, Irish, Germans) naturally the English settlers as with any mass migration, absolved into one an other. But the initial influence of the original founders of that nation remained intact and dominant until this day. And thats the point we are trying to make. No you are no longer ‘English’ but your heritage, society, foundations, im afraid to say, well, they are English… British actually if you consider the fact that many people from Britain settled in America. To say that there are more Germans in the US than British is statistically impossible given imigrstion from the UK happened over a much longer period. And those English bred!

        But i digress, this is about heritage and celebrating it. Why are millions of Americans discouraged from celebrating their British ancestry? Seems many are even coerced into celebrating any Germanic links but not British, as proven by your bizarre census! Why on earth would the majority white ancestral heritage be left off?! Because somebody wants it left off, why?

      • Archie….lets keep it to English because many Americans do acknowledge their Scottish heritage…one thing they ignore is this….’what is thanksgiving’?…its about England and the founding fathers…why is it not admitted and shouted about?

      • Doughty says:

        Our cultural heritage is English, but its also African, German, Indian, and a little bit of French and Irish. I suppose you would have to live here to understand. You downplay your Anglo Saxon heritage which is strange seeing as how they are the foundation of your country and language. I’m going to play devil’s advocate and ask where have all the Anglo-English gone? I can point you to several sources that say that they are your foundation. I mean for god sake your country is named after them.

      • Where are the Anglo – Saxons ? That phrase again! I’d say after a 1000 plus years they are pretty much inside every person that not only walks these islands, but also every person who took their DNA to any part of their descendants vast empire… along with their norman, viking, Celtic, jute, fresian and Roma blood lines too! That took well over a thousand years, to create the peoples we know today. And you are claiming that the ‘English’ were ‘bred’ and diluted out of their own colony after a couple of hundred? Rubbish!!! You need to grasp the concept of time. England as we know it took millenia to become what it is today. It just so happens that Saxon and Anglo culture endured, the peoples who brought it here were mere specs in the history of a country which took a long time in the making. And you are claiming the same happened to America in a spec of that time? Impossible. And yet you also cling on to a name for an argument? the name ‘England’ it refers to the ‘Eng’ as in Angle or later coined ‘Anglo’. Place names are the only part of ENGlish culture which testify to their presence, Ton or Ex in place names, but the same can be said of names in Devon which hold Celtic names but which is in England?, the same as happens in Cumbria in north England, Cumbria was part of the Hen Ogledd or the old north, a former Celt stronghold but again is in England? Yet Many places in that region still have place names more akin to a Celtic origin, and that is true of certain words which later became Anglicised, yet still retained some Celtic form. My point is, just because a nation is labelled or named after something, well that isnt always the whole picture! Areas of England will retain more of their history pre Saxon settlement and indeed in some cases, after Saxon settlement as their culture was erased by new invaders, such as in the case of Yorkshire and Northumberland where Viking heritage can still be felt to this day, but we are in England right? Home of the pure blood Anglo – Saxon! Lol There is no such thing! It is scientifically impossible! Given the lands were raided hundreds of times over hundreds of years after their arrival and eventual demise at the hands of the Vikings and Normans! Many of whom infiltrated Saxon culture, language and beds!

      • As for the Irish and Scotti of Alba; Spain was called Celt Iberia at the time for a reason too… The Spanish Celt travelled north to Ireland initially and spread northward into Scotland, from here tribes moved south across Britain whilst more iberian migrants moved up into southern Britain via what is now France. But something such as a Celtic ethnicity isn’t easy to prove, the Celts originated from a small group in central Europe and their culture spread from there, pushed by advancing Asian races such as Mongals, west. identity thus should be considered to be of those inhabiting the Celtic regions and practiced Celtic culture, and again thus their decedents are to be considered of Celtic decent. DNA shows that most of the genes in Great Britain and Ireland are still from the stone age inhabitants of the Isles, however different groups such as the Vikings, Romans, Normans and Saxons changed whilst interbreeding with the locals, altered their culture depending on the time. So to sum it up the peoples of these Isles are still very related ethnically but our nationalism, identity and cultural history is what ultimately divides us today. And its the same with the British and Americans! The same race, divided by cultural diversification due to constant migration, but the genetics will remain the same.

      • Doughty says:

        Archie there is nothing you have told me that I don’t already know. People moved much slower 1000 years ago it took much longer for things to evolve and for immigrants to arrive. The America we live in today is as English as you are Anglo Saxon and that is the bottom line. I’m sorry that disappoints you but we are a thoroughly mixed group of people here in the United States. You say the English are made up of Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Romans, Normans, Celts, etc etc, and that you are a mix of people. I fully understand that, but I don’t think you realize we Americans are made up of Germans, British, Irish, Italians, French etc etc.

        I have British, German, Irish, French Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Shawnee, Cherokee, Mohawk, and Mohican ancestors. Tell me Archie how this is different? Every single American that I know, EVERY SINGLE ONE, is thoroughly mixed with different European groups. My fiancé is as mixed as I am and our daughter is as well. You don’t live in America so it is hard for you to imagine but it is true. DNA means nothing to me, you keep bringing it up like it means something. We are talking about culture, and as you well know culture and DNA do not necessarily go hand in hand. English culture and language are Germanic with a Latin twist. I know this, yet you seem to say that it is not because your mixed, but guess what so is America.

      • Doughty says:

        Also if you want to talk about DNA then you could easily say that people from southern Germany are not Germanic in their DNA. Therefore they are not Germans. But go ahead and tell that to a Bavarian and see how they respond.

  113. Doughty says:

    Hey mpbaz115
    You’ll be happy to know that because of the my recent paper I was able to inform my entire class about our underlying Anglo culture here in America. An Italian American girl was extremely surprised by this and argued for the melting pot analogy, but with some persuading she is now convinced as well as the other 40 students in my class.

    “Families on either side of the Border had a lot in common regardless of whether they were Scots or English. They both had to survive in this hostile environment. This made the Border people a very tough people and a very insular people.” The Graham clan was known particularly for reiving on both sides of the border. King James was sick of their lawless behavior that he forced them into northern Ireland before they immigrated to America.

    You should do a little reading about the Border Reivers. Here are some links:



  114. I wrote a reply that disappeared..

  115. Doughty says:

    I also think that many Americans deny their British roots because the white people who owned slaves in America were usually British. I’ve heard many conversations between white and black people, and white Americans always pull the “my Irish ancestors were poor and persecuted we never owned slaves.” Nobody wants to be linked to slavery. Even though only roughly 2% of the white American population ever owned slaves

  116. Doughty says:

    “Now that is something i love to learn about why certain places are called what they are called i love that…and i love they used indian tribal names or words from their language..love that..I have read the English were more welcoming to the indians than other settlers…im sure you have heard about ranoake island and jamestown have your pupils though?”

    Actually the English were one of the cruelest groups to the Indians. The Highland Scots and French were the ones to get along and really mix with the Indians. They even have a word in French Canadian called Métis which means mixed blood people.

    • Not from what i have read..history shows that after revolution…the white eurpoeans left were hell bent on taking land and animals for their own if that meant taking out the sioux or whomever that maybe then so be it, wheras before the English did try to do deals with the indains heck one married one!!

      • Doughty says:

        Oh well yes you are correct that the Americans were much more harsh than the English, but the English were considerably more harsh than the French or the Scottish Highlanders. But remember that we are here to talk about our English American heritage which unfortunately involves racism, slavery, and mass killing. It was our Anglo American culture that displaced the Indians. Most other European groups didn’t arrive until after Indian removal. These are some of the reasons why so many Americans deny their Anglo culture. I am proud of my Anglo culture even if my ancestors did do some violent things. The good outweighs the bad.

        I also think it funny that we become the “white Europeans left” when we do horrible things, but English when we talk about the good things. Believe me it was the Anglo culture that was the harshest to minority groups in the United States. I’m telling y’all that that is the reason why so many English Americans deny their heritage.

  117. Doughty says:

    Overall I truly do appreciate our shared British heritage, but I just wanted to give you Brits a little American perspective, and let you know that we have grown apart for quite some time and we are no longer as genetically British as you believe. Our relationship is more cultural now than genetic this is unfortunately what happens when you dominate an entire continent and then invite millions of immigrants into the country.

    • doughty , Archie is right, although you say you are a mix and you are, it takes many years to totally wipe out the historical connections,,,but this isnt just about DNA and blood this is more to do with the fact in America the country founded by England in Jamestown,Virginia ignores its history in favour of its most recent history,African-american’s, Latin-american, Irish-american are testament to this.. you say this is to do with wiping out or damaging the Indians by the English..if thats true ..then why does America favour cultures which to my mind have brought them nothing but trouble..Italians..the mafia..nice, African/West Indian’s..gangs and drugs..lovely…Mexicans and Colombians…more gangs and more drugs..ok not every single person in these groups has brought this but some have and yet they are happy to say we are x.y.z our supposed atrocities happened years ago these problems are happening now in America if America looked towards its motherland more rather than the rest of the world you would without doubt be in a better place..one example would be joining the commonwealth with your north american neighbours.

  118. Doughty says:

    Well mpbaz the answer is simple, none of these groups committed genocide or enslaved other people in America. I can tell you that American universities love making white Americans feel guilty about their past rather than proud. Angle Americans enslaved and conquered North America and those other groups did not. There is definitely guilt associated with this and in America it’s known as white guilt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt

    Liberal academics love to portray American history as a mass slaughter of innocent people. Although you and I both know that it was not. I appreciate the British foundation that America stands on, but Americans want freedom and there is absolutely no way that United States citizens would ever want to be part of the Commonwealth. I might be culturally Anglo American, but I would personally pick up my AR15 and defend our constitution (as would most freedom loving Americans) if a monarchy was ever established over the United States. With all due respect we don’t want to be part of the Commonwealth, because we are not British, we are Americans. This is another thing that makes us so very different from you.

    I’m also just getting Archie’s goat a little bit, because of the fact that he downplays how important the Anglo-Saxons were to England. Maybe it’s because he’s half Scottish? LOL

    • You dont need a monarchy to be part of the commonwealth..you do realise the commonwealth is a group of nations that have (in general) been part of the Empire. Its a group that shares many things its not like the EU its voluntary.. we share a common tongue and ancestry even countries who have left the Empire and gained independence are still proud to be in the commonwealth WHY? Surely they can all be wrong can they? Canada, India to name two..look here http://thecommonwealth.org/our-history

      The commonwealth has nothing to do with being British

      • Doughty says:

        They have the Queen on their money, that’s too close for comfort for me. LOL But yes I’m aware of what the commonwealth is. I had no idea y’all had a commonwealth games until I saw it on T.V. in Yorkshire last summer.

      • Not all countries have the queen on their notes, what makes me laugh is the Americans go nuts for the royal family so what gives?

        Not knowing about the games speaks volumes considering the countries involved..thats staggering.

  119. Doughty says:

    The royal family is more of a novelty in America, not something we want to be involved in our government. The commonwealth games is not the Olympics so it is never on American television. Honestly most Americans don’t know the difference between England and Britain, let alone what the commonwealth is, or that it has games.

    • Doughty says:

      My knowledge of modern British culture is not so great. I’ve always loved British history and culture, but my knowledge after 1776 is pretty foggy.

      • The royal family are not involved in our government either…they are of figureheads so dont know why you think they would be involved with yours? If you joined the commonwealth they would have no jurisdiction over you, your government would still control your country as ours does.

        The commonwealth games maybe not be the Olympics but so many countries are involved in it..its a shame America does not at least show it…its sport and a spectacle..America loves both so its a shame your missing out.

        Its a shame Americans do not know the difference between GB and England but they are not alone in that, when the union was formed it was easier for England to be wiped off the face off the map and reinvented as Great Britain I think to make the Union and Empire stronger in a way..it didnt work because Scotland and Wales still wanted their own identity as well as being British this has shown yo be true recently with the referendum in Scotland voting on whether to break away from the 300 year union.

        We have to ask why Americans don t know why and address this, we are the founders of your country i for one would want to know what this country is about just out of interest….remember this ignore your history at your peril

  120. Doughty says:

    I realize that the monarchy is symbolic now, but it’s not a symbol that Americans want for our country. I mean we did fight a war to distance ourselves from British monarchy and government. I don’t think we’ll ever go back to it.

    You are right Americans should definitely know our founding history. But just as so many immigrants assimilated into British culture eg. Celts, Normans, Saxons, etc we Americans are going in that same direction. As I said before it only took the Anglo-Saxons about 400 years before they started calling themselves English, who knows how long it took the Normans, but there English now too. There are no genetically pure English Americans anymore. We are evolving and becoming more American. We will always remember our English beginnings, but like England we have our own identity built upon hundreds of years of immigration and a mix of cultures.

    • You fought to not pay high taxes anymore…ok this was under the juridiction of the king but your fight was not to stop being governed by a monarch…your not French…(although it was them that stirred it all up in the US&Canada..)

      Thats the problem… you say you will always remember your English beginnings if you did we would not be having these conversations thats why this board was started..I agree that we are one big melting pot especially in Europe and US and we all have our own identity thats true..all we were asking is that our part in your history is admitted and honoured thats all, currently its hidden and those who want to shout about it are called racists and slave trade enthusiasts that has to change..anyone related to the English now had nothing to d with that trade and in fact it was the British that stopped it and made sure those who tried to carry it on were stopped too as we ruled the seas then ..we did so much good which is ignored.

      • Doughty says:

        You’re right that our founding fathers were upset by taxation, and that the revolution was initially about taxes. Many of the founders originally did not wont independence, but they tried several times to have their grievances addressed and king German George would have none of it. By the time the war broke out this is what we thought of the king.

        “But where says some is the King of America? I’ll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the ROYAL BRUTE OF BRITAIN…let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America THE LAW IS KING.”
        Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776

        God alone is the king in America. We threw a tea party to protest taxation, but we started a war to be rid of the monarchy. I have read several of the founders journals and personal writings as well as being an American history major, I have a pretty good idea what the founders where thinking throughout the process of the revolution. Our founders would be rolling over in their graves if they knew how big our government has become, and if we ever joined the commonwealth that would be the exact opposite of what my ancestors fought and died for. We may have an Anglo culture, but our political sensibilities are nothing like the English. We are the radicals of the Anglo-sphere, quite proudly I must say.

        On a side note, is there a national folk dress in England? Similar to say the kilt? I ask because on my Tumblr I like to post traditional European folk costumes, but I am stumped when I try to show some English pride. I’ve often wondered is the suit and tie something that the English invented and everyone else adopted it? I know there is the Morris dancing costume but I don’t know if that is nationwide or just regional.

      • I am a bit fed up of the pro ‘Germanic’ stance on this blog levelled by certain pro ‘German’ supporters! This is a blog for English – American connections and their supporters, not Anti English pro Germanites! Those who are spouting off about Germany’s over riding connections to America are not welcome in my opinion. And i will tell those that still view the English as pure Anglo Saxon, that they are seriously wrong in their thinking and FLAWED with zero knowledge of British history! Saxons as i keep pointing out, were a group of invaders which came from Northern Europe along with THOUSANDS of others across the continent over THOUSANDS of years, NOT a mere 400 years like the former English colony of America! The very founders of Jamestown and later the New England colonies of Plymoth & Boston were mixed race from all over the UK, they just happened to be Anglicised at the time! England had merged many tribes and cultures over 2500 years to become what it was at the time of the pilgrim fathers so please, STOP over emphasiasing the importance of Angle and Saxon heritage. Our history is an amalgamation of many! Norman, Brythonic, Fresian, Jute, Dane and Iberian! Or are the peoples of modern day Saxony identicle to us with the same language? No they are not!!! They havnt been exposed to all the mass influx of peoples and cultures in the last 3000 years like the British! To be British even English is to be a part of each! And that has not happened to America in a mere 400 years! A majority race and culture does not get bred out in a blink of an eye! Ametica was settled by the British and founded by the British, its society was set up as a mirror of the mother land! Deal with it. Thus blog aims to question why certain envious sects within America, are trying to erase any connections to the British and replace history with peoples who only represented a minority at the time. Its rubbish and anti semetic. Thankfully the majority do not support this even if they choose not to acknowledge it. As for the pro German Americans, fine! Link yourselves to them, who cares? Not me! I am half English half Scottish and proud! But let me say this. Most German Americans hail from one area of America Pennsylvania, a majority hotspot for German settlement that never grew more than 300,000. The British however iver the course of 200 years amassed a population their numbering well over 2 million, and they multiplied! Its a case of minority having the loudest voice as is usually the case! From the time of both World Wars German popularity and influx to America virtualy ceased! The language was forbidden and their culture diminished! Only ancestral heritage remained until it became pc to even acknowledge German heritage!

        As for the ‘1’ vote America nearly speaking German, that is a well documented lie and urban myth made up by pro Minority German supporters of anti English stock. It never happened or even came close! The vote was in actual fact a vote to determine the production of a bi-lingual paper in Pennsylvania! NOT a vote on wether the nation should take German as an official language! Because 99% of Americans in the newly independent country spoke English!! NOT German! A vote to put English as the official language faltered due to anti English semetism and feeling, and it was never resolved!

        Read for yourselves doubters…

        The Legendary English-Only Vote of 1795

        Dennis Baron

        In April, 1987, an election judge from Missouri wrote to Ann Landers citing the following excerpt from the local Election Manual to support the argument that everyone’s vote counts: “In 1776, one vote gave America the English language instead of German.” The statement is not strictly true, as many of Landers’ more alert readers quickly pointed out. The vote in question did not take place. However, language became a political and an emotional issue as early as the 1750s, when British settlers in Pennsylvania began to fear and resent the fact that a third of their fellow Pennsylvanians were German speakers.

        Since that time, American nativists have sought to eradicate minority languages and discourage bilingualism wherever it could be found: in Maine and Louisiana, California and New Mexico, Hawaii and Puerto Rico, as well as in Pennsylvania. Complaints about Germans as well as other non-English-speakers became all too common in the last quarter of the 19th century, and again during and after World War I, when the fear of immigrants and their languages prompted protective English-only legislation. Many Americans considered nonanglophones to be less than human: in 1904 a railroad president told a congressional hearing on the mistreatment of immigrant workers, “These workers don’t suffer—they don’t even speak English” (Shanahan, 1989.) Today as well there is opposition to nonanglophones and bilinguals—this time not Germans but Hispanic and Asian Americans. The result is the proposed English Language Amendment (ELA), a Constitutional amendment making English the official language of the United States.

        Despite the latest rehearsal in Ann Landers’ advice column of the myth that German had once come close to replacing English in the United States, Americans have never had a legally-established official language. The so-called German vote did not take place in 1776, and it had nothing to do with privileging German over English. The legend that it did, which has gone around since at least the 1850s, was spread initially by propagandists celebrating German contributions to American culture. It has since been taken over by those who claim that the English language in the United States is an endangered species. The story of the German Vote is occasionally trotted out by ELA supporters to demonstrate the power of ethnic groups to subvert national unity and to warn Americans that although the German threat to English has been defused, the Spanish one has not.

        The events whose misinterpretation gave rise to the legend of the German vote occurred in 1795, though the date is frequently changed to the more patriotically crucial year of 1776. As is characteristic of such stories, what actually occurred is not entirely clear. What is clear is that Congress never considered replacing English with any other language or giving any other tongue equal status with English. In the 18th century there were rumors that a few Brit-bashing superpatriots campaigned to have the new nation drop English in favor of Hebrew, French, or Greek, considered in the late 18th century to be the languages of God, rationality, and democracy, respectively. But the desire to found a New Eden rather than a New Babel assured that the United States would be united both legally and socially under a single language, and that language would be English. Noah Webster championed a dialect-free Federal English based on his spelling book (and his own New England dialect). John Adams rightly predicted that English would become the next world language. And Roger Sherman of Connecticut is reported to have urged Americans to retain English and make the British speak Greek. (See Baron, 1982.) Despite the solid position of English both initially and throughout American history, the legend of the German vote persists.

        The German Vote

        On January 13, 1795, Congress considered a proposal, not to give German any official status, but merely to print the federal laws in German as well as English. During the debate, a motion to adjourn failed by one vote. The final vote rejecting the translation of federal laws, which took place one month later, is not recorded.

        The translation proposal itself originated as a petition to Congress on March 20, 1794, from a group of Germans living in Augusta, Virginia. A House committee responding to that petition recommended publishing sets of the federal statutes in English and distributing them to the states, together with the publication of three thousand sets of laws in German, “for the accommodation of such German citizens of the United States, as do not understand the English language” (American State Papers ser. 10, v. 1:114). According to the succinct report in the Aurora Gazette, “A great variety of plans were proposed, but none that seemed to meet the general sense of the House” (22 January, 1795, p. 3).

        A vote to adjourn and sit again on the recommendation failed, 42 to 41, but there is no reason to believe from this close vote that more than token support existed for publishing the laws in German. The vote to adjourn seems to have been interpreted by the House as a vote of no confidence both in the committee’s recommendation to translate the laws and in its recommendation on the distribution of the sets of laws once they were published in English. While there is no record of debate on the translation provision that day, if sentiment on the issue in Congress was anything like sentiment in Pennsylvania, translation was probably opposed by a substantial majority of the representatives.

        On the other hand, the committee’s plan for distributing the sets of laws did provoke some strong disagreement in the House. After objections to the latter were aired, a new committee was formed and asked to report again, and the House agreed to adjourn. It is from the close interim vote, not on an actual bill but on adjournment, that the socalled “German vote” legend has been built.

        One month later, on February 16, 1795, the House once again considered the question of promulgating the laws, and among the issues, once again, was translating the federal statutes into German. This time some of the actual debate has been preserved. Rep. Thomas Hartley of Pennsylvania argued that “it was perhaps desirable that the Germans should learn English; but if it is our object to give present information, we should do it in the language understood. The Germans who are advanced in years cannot learn our language in a day. It would be generous in the Government to inform those persons. Many honest men, in the late disturbances [the Whiskey Rebellion], were led away by misrepresentation; ignorance of the laws laid them open to deception.”

        Rep. William V. Murray of Maryland, who opposed translating the laws into German, countered “that it had never been the custom in England to translate the laws into Welsh or Gaelic, and yet the great bulk of the Welsh, and some hundred thousands of people in Scotland, did not understand a word of English” (Annals of Congress 4:1228-29). The House finally approved publication of current statutes, as well as future ones, in English only. The bill was agreed to by the Senate and signed by President Washington the following month.

        The January vote on adjournment is sometimes known as “the Muhlenberg Vote,” after the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Pennsylvania’s Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, a Federalist who spoke German with difficulty, so it is claimed, and who was at any rate a member of a prominent family of assimilated Germans who favored English as the language of education and religion (Dorpalen 1942, 178). Although the roll call vote does not survive, tradition has it that Muhlenberg stepped down to cast the deciding negative, thereby dooming German in America to minority-language status. Tradition notwithstanding, too much weight should not be given to the fact that the Speaker was not in the chair on this occasion. It was common for the Speaker to step down, and Muhlenburg did so on many other occasions during the Third Congress. Even a positive vote on the adjournment issue could not have led to approval of German translations of the laws, a concession which the Congress has repeatedly refused to make ever since.

        Nonetheless, Muhlenberg was blamed for selling out German language interests by Franz Lher, whose 1847 History and Achievements of the Germans in America presents a garbled though frequently cited account of what is supposed to have happened. Lher places the crucial language vote not in the U.S. Congress, but in the Pennsylvania legislature, over which Muhlenberg had earlier presided. There is no evidence as to Muhlenberg’s actual views on German publishing; no evidence that he cast a tie-breaking vote on the matter; and no contemporary indication that the German community was displeased with his stewardship over the Third Congress. However, Muhlenberg later did manage to irritate his German constituents by casting the deciding vote in favor of the Jay Treaty during the Fourth Congress, a move which drove his brother-in-law to stab him and which cost him the next election in 1796. This significant tie-breaker soon became confused with the earlier adjournment cliff-hanger, conveniently fleshing out the myth of the German vote (Feer 1952, 401).

        Official English Then and Now

        Opponents of moves to make English the official language of the United States frequently suspect that English-only advocates are motivated by more than political idealism. This suspicion is certainly justified by the historical record. For the past two centuries, proponents of official-English have sounded two separate themes, one rational and patriotic, the other emotional and racist. The Enlightenment belief that language and nation are inextricably intertwined, coupled with the chauvinist notion that English is a language particularly suited to democratically constituted societies, are convincing to many Americans who find discrimination on non-linguistic grounds thoroughly reprehensible (see Baron, 1990). More prominent though, throughout American history, have been the nativist attacks on minority languages and their speakers: Native Americans, Asians, the French, Germans, Jews and Hispanics, to name only the most frequently-targeted groups.

        The English-only nativists who attacked the Germans used arguments similar to those heard nowadays against newer immigrants. Benjamin Franklin considered the Pennsylvania Germans to be a “swarthy” racial group distinct from the English majority in the colony. In 1751 he complained, “Why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion?” (The papers of Benjamin Franklin. Ed. Leonard W. Labaree. New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1959. vol 4:234).

        The Germans were accused by other eighteenth-century Anglos of laziness, illiteracy, clannishness, a reluctance to assimilate, excessive fertility, and Catholicism. They were even blamed for the severe Pennsylvania winters (Feer 1952, 403; Mittelberger 1898, 104). Most irritating to Pennsylvania’s English-firsters in the latter 1700s was German language loyalty, although it was clear that, despite community efforts to preserve their language, Germans were adopting English and abandoning German at a rate that should have impressed the rest of the English-speaking population.

        Anti-German sentiment spread along with German immigration, and the nation as a whole resisted both the German bilingual schools that were established in parts of the Midwest in the 19th century and the common practice of publishing legal notices in German-American newspapers. On a number of occasions the U.S. Congress again rejected motions to print laws or other documents in German as well as English. The motions were often treated jocularly and were shouted down amidst racist cries of, “What! In the Cherokee? [and in] the Old Congo language!” (Congressional Globe 1844, 7).

        Antagonism toward Germans and their language resurfaced in the Midwest in the late 1880s and early 1890s, and again across the country during and after World War I. Between 1917 and 1922 most of the states dropped German from their school curricula. Nebraska’s open meeting law of 1919 forbade the use of foreign languages in public, and in 1918 Governor Harding of Iowa proclaimed that “English should and must be the only medium of instruction in public, private, denominational and other similar schools. Conversation in public places, on trains, and over the telephone should be in the English language. Let those who cannot speak or understand the English language conduct their religious worship in their home” (New York Times, 18 June 1918, p. 12). Such attitudes had a chilling effect on language use. As many as eighteen thousand people were charged in the Midwest during and immediately following World War I with violating the English-only statutes (Crawford 1989, 23.)

        The anti-German school laws were declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1923. In Meyer v. Nebraska, the court ruled that “the protection of the Constitution extends to all,—to those who speak other languages as well as to those born with English on the tongue” (262 U.S. 390). Similar anti-Japanese laws were invalidated by the court in Farrington v. Tokushige in 1927 (273 U.S. 284). And the high court reaffirmed the states’ responsibility to educate non-English speakers effectively in Lau v. Nichols (1974) (414 U.S. Reports 563), though the court did not specify how this was to be accomplished.

        Nonetheless, Americans remain troubled by foreign languages and their speakers. Despite the fact that the 1980 U.S. Census showed that more than 97 percent of the people in the nation speak English (Waggoner 1988, 69), nativist fears for the safety of English seem stronger than ever. The English Language Amendment (ELA) has been before the Congress since 1981. California passed an official-English law in 1986, a year in which a total of thirty-seven states considered official language measures. In 1989 Arizona, Colorado and Florida passed English-only laws, and votes on the issue are likely in Massachusetts, Ohio and Pennsylvania in the near future. Today’s attempts to suppress the use of Asian languages and Spanish in the United States are manifest in state official-language referenda; in local ordinances mandating the use of the roman alphabet on signboards or forbidding the purchase of non-English books by public libraries; and in regulations which require employees to use English on the job and during breaks, or which force school children to use English in schoolbuses as well as classrooms.

        Official-English is an emotional issue for many people, involving questions of patriotism as well as racism, language loyalty as well as assimilation. Supporters and opponents of the ELA almost came to blows during a discussion of the subject on the “Donahue” show in Miami a few years ago. Adding to the complexity of the issue is the problem that language legislation, at least in the United States, is difficult if not impossible to enforce. In 1906, Pres. Theodore Roosevelt ordered the federal government to adopt simplified spelling in its official publications. This move generated so much resistance that Roosevelt softly withdrew his order (see Baron, 1982). The New Mexico constitution, establishing English as the new state’s official language, was ratified by means of bilingual ballots. A 1923 Illinois law making American, rather than English, the official language of that state was quietly amended in 1969 because Illinois residents continued to speak and teach English in defiance or ignorance of the statute. The English Language Amendment, if it is passed, may also prove to be more of a symbol than an enforceable statute, though many people fear that it could become a dangerous tool for linguistic and cultural repression. In any case, though, the ELA seems one final, and to some observers, paranoid, attempt to make up for the perceived humiliation of 1795, when English reportedly came within a hair’s-breadth of losing out as the official language of the United States in a vote which never really took place.


        American State Papers 1834. Washington, D.C. ser. 10, v. 1:114.

        Ann Landers. 1987. Your one vote can be important. Los Angeles Times (April 7).

        Annals of Congress 1849. Washington, D.C. 4:122829.

        Aurora Gazette 1795 (22 January), p. 3.

        Baron, Dennis. 1990. The English-Only question: An official language for Americans? New Haven: Yale Univ. Press.

        _______________. 1982. Grammar and good taste: Reforming the American language. New Haven: Yale Univ. Press.

        Congressional Globe 1844, 7.

        Crawford, James. 1989. Bilingual education: History, politics, theory, and practice. Trenton, N.J.: Crane Publishing.

        Dorpalen, Andreas. 1942. The German Element in Early Pennsylvania Politics, 1789-1800: A Study in Americanization. Pennsylvania History 9:178.

        Feer, Robert A. 1952. Official use of the German language in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography 76:394-405.

        Franklin, Benjamin. 1959. The papers of Benjamin Franklin. Ed. Leonard W. Labaree. New Haven: Yale Univ. Press 4:234.

        Lher, Franz. 1847. Geschichte und Zustnde der Deutschen in Amerika. Cincinnati.

        Mittelberger, Gottlieb. 1898. Journey to Pennsylvania in the year 1750 and return to Germany in the year 1754. Trans. Carl T. Eben, Philadelphia.

        Shanahan, Daniel. 1989. We need a nationwide effort to encourage, enhance, and expand our students’ proficiency in languages. Chronicle of Higher Education 21 May, p. A40.

        Waggoner, Dorothy. 1988. Language minorities in the United States in the 1980s: The evidence from the 1980 census. In Language diversity: Problem or resource?, ed. Sandra Lee McKay and Sau-ling Cynthia Wong. New York.: Newbury House. Pp. 69-108.


        Dennis Baron is professor of English and linguistics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

  121. Doughty says:

    I agree that English should be the official language in America. Unfortunately we don’t have an official language in America. English is the lingua franca but it is not legally the official language. You are right about the German language vote in America. I learned about that in my freshman year of college. As far as the English being culturally Germanic, the fact is that they are. They are just as Germanic as people from southern Germany. The English are not purely Anglo-Saxon but they are Germanic in culture, and recent DNA evidence has shown that the R1b in England did not come from Iberia so the Iberian thing is hog wash.

    I will say again, in my entire life living in Ohio the only “pure” white Americans are very recent immigrants. Everyone else is mixed.

    I also teach music at a local music shop here is a list of my students last names.
    Gibson (British)
    Hamm (German)
    Sams (British)
    Reusch (German)
    Haprian (Romanian)
    Silvious (Portuguese)
    Trayter (Hungarian)
    Klee (German)
    Kisling (German)
    Freas (British)
    Ball (British)
    LeMonica (French)
    Burns (Irish)
    Errante (Italian)
    Capozzio (Italian)

    As you can see we are now thoroughly mixed, and this is just a small sample from a small town, the closer to big cities the more diversity there is. I support Anglo America culture and educating people about it, but don’t confuse genetics with culture. Sorry Archie “STOP over emphasiasing the importance of our “English” heritage. Our history is an amalgamation of many!” Especially today.

    • TODAY it is yes well know today it is , its the foundation thats ignored today you are world mix, shouldnt that world mix should be grateful for how it all started instead of just turning up and using what is their? The government should teach the history of the US since 1600’s in schools not just since revolution then we may get somewhere. Does anyone know the history of your flag? Why the white house is white if not then this should be addressed. Our nation is demanding this now and rightly so, and our cultural mix was 1000’s of yeasrs in the making not 400 your nation has no excuse ..

      • Doughty says:

        Hey mpbaz
        I completely agree with you on the cultural foundation of this country no question about it. I also try to educate Americans in this regard. I just disagree on the ethnic aspect. To be honest I hate it when Americans hyphenate themselves at all. Our former president Teddy Roosevelt once said that hyphenated Americans deserve only half a vote if they can’t identify as fully American. So I only object to the ethnic aspect of this post not the cultural aspect. Most white Americans are no longer ethnically from one country or another which is why we should just call ourselves American and be proud about it.

        Also back to the question of folk customs. Does England have one? Could you point me to source that shows pictures of these costumes? The Scots have their kilt and other countries have folk dress as well, but what about England?

      • England doesnt really have a national costume, the Scots, Welsh and Irish have a lineage which is more or less deep rooted in Celtic culture, area’s of England such as Cumbria and Cornwall former Celt strongholds of England also retain many traditions but not necessarily costumes per se. The reason? It is because England has no singular identity as its popultion over thousands of years, has been exposed to many more invasions of peoples and cultures from across Europe, much mire than Wales and Scotland whos naturally occuring mountainous terrain, proved a hard barrier to breach and navigate; in England their has been no singular lineage which stretches back to a time before even the Romans. England has seen wave after wave of culture, peoples and races influence its final form.

        Some say that Morris Dancers represent English national costume, others identify the Bowler hat and suit, some would say London’s pearly Queen or the Beefeater… But none has ever claimed to be Englands national dress like those from the neighbouring Celtic nations. Incidentally England does have many traditions such as Wassailing, Carol Singing, All Hallows eve celebrations and local festivities such as Maypole dancing etc all very unique to England. Just google ‘English’ traditions, there’s a lot more than you think!

    • Sorry but the Rb1 genome was actually found in only a small percentage of English men tested in a sample group of 4000, the Celtic genome was actually present among many more throughout the UK, including England! Culturally we are VERY different from modern day Germans who live in Saxony! I should know, i live here! The language for one is an amalgamation of many branches of Old English or Old Norse/German with huge influences of Franco Norman, why else is modern day English and German so different?! The Germans are notorious in Europe for being a very serious race, organised and methodical, totally different to that of the English. I will say this, read all the americanised texts all you want, but our education will undoubtebly have first hand information which will tell you tht even the word Anglo was a recent term to try and label the many tribes of England and tongues who rested here over thousands of years. Do not preach to me from across the pond and try to dictate the history of a well educated and informed English man! In me and my bretheren there runs the blood of over 3000 years of European history and culture. We evolved to who we are today after intermingling, trading, breeding and exchanging with cultures across Europe, not just the peoples from Saxony! History over 3000 years does not work like that! If that were the case then the many thousands of native Britons who were here and survived the biggest invasion of Britain (Romans) before the Saxons came, well they would have been wiped out! They wernt, they were intergrated and assimilated and the same happened when the Saxons invaded and later the Norman and Viking nobles who numbered in their thousand over nearly a thousand years! Cumbria and Yorkshire have place names and family names more akin to Old Nordic tongue than any Saxon relation, the same can be said for most of Lancashire and Lincolnshire. Its only until you reach South of Birmingham do plces acrually show some ancestral link to Angle Saxon heritage. Move West to Devon (Celtic!) and Cornwall that the area and place names turn decidedly Celtic. The same for the Marches and bordelands with Wales. All these areas in England but with little connection to Angle Saxon culture. England is a 3000 year old mixed race society with a culture that reflects just that. And thats coming from a person who has lived it, breathed it and studied it! America? Well it was given rights of passage from the very same people i am talking about, initially.

      • Doughty says:

        R1b is predominate throughout the British isles especially the variety known as L21. So I don’t think you know what your talking about. I have spent a lot of time over at FTDNA and Eupedia forums and most geneticist agree that R1b and it’s variants are the most common in the British Isles.

        So you are saying that the Scots are Celtic even though they have also had a long history of Germanic invaders into their lands? The lowlands of Scotland has a Germanic component from the English running from the Normans into Scotland. The Scots language is Germanic and is spread throughout the lowlands. Lets not forget the Vikings in the Hebrides, Orkney, and Shetland.

        “The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the SCOTTISH LOWLANDS, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.”

        But honestly the whole DNA thing is just silly in my opinion because R1b is also found in in Southern Germany so according to you a large portions of Germans are also not Germanic. Which makes zero sense in cultural terms. Culture has nothing to do with DNA.
        You could go argue with the geneticist over at Eupedia if you like.


  122. Doughty says:

    The Germanic branch (S21/U106)

    The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Noridc Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-M223, R1a-Z284 and to a lesser extent N1c1, which evolved into a relatively unified whole during the Iron Age, the first truly Germanic culture and language, although spread across many tribes. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards.

    The presence of R1b-S21 in other parts of Europe can be attributed almost exclusively to the Germanic migrations that took place between the 3rd and the 10th century. The Frisians and Anglo-Saxons disseminated this haplogroup to England and the Scottish Lowlands, the Franks to Belgium and France, the Burgundians to eastern France, the Suebi to Galicia and northern Portugal, and the Lombards to Austria and Italy. The Goths help propagate S21 around Eastern Europe, but apparently their Germanic lineages were progressively diluted by blending with Slavic and Balkanic populations, and their impact in Italy, France and Spain was very minor. Later the Danish and Norwegian Vikings have also contributed to the diffusion of R1b-S21 (alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a) around much of Western Europe, but mainly in Iceland, in the British Isles, in Normandy, and in the southern Italy.

    From the Late Middle Ages until the early 20th century, the Germans expanded across much of modern Poland, pushing as far as Latvia to the north-east and Romania to the south-east. During the same period the Austrians built an empire comprising what is now the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, and parts of Romania, western Ukraine and southern Poland. Many centuries of German and Austrian influence in central and Eastern Europe resulted in a small percentage of Germanic lineages being found among modern populations. In Romania 4% of the population still consider themselves German. The low percentage of R1b-S21 in Finland, Estonia and Latvia can be attributed to the Swedish or Danish rule from the late Middle Ages to the late 19th century.

    Distribution of haplogroup R1b-S21 (U106) in Europe
    Upwards of 40% in England

    The Atlantic Celtic branch (L21)

    The Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic R1b people had settled in what is now Germany by 2300 BCE, where they founded the Unetice culture. Judging from the propagation of bronze working to Western Europe, those first Indo-Europeans reached France and the Low Countries by 2200 BCE, Britain by 2100 BCE and Ireland by 2000 BCE, and Iberia by 1800 BCE. This first wave of R1b presumably carried R1b-L21 lineages in great number (perhaps because of a founder effect), as these are found everywhere in western, northern and Central Europe. The early split of L21 from the main Proto-Celtic branch around Germany would explain why the Q-Celtic languages (Goidelic and Hispano-Celtic) diverged so much from the P-Celtic branch (La Tène, Gaulish, Brythonic), which appears to have expanded from the later Urnfield and Hallstat cultures.

    Some L21 lineages from the Netherlands and northern Germany later entered Scandinavia (from 1700 BCE) with the dominant subclade of the region, R1b-S21/U106 (see below). The stronger presence of L21 in Norway and Iceland can be attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway. Nowadays about 20% of all Icelandic male lineages are R1b-L21 of Scottish or Irish origin.

    In France, R1b-L21 is mainly present in historical Brittany (including Mayenne and Vendée) and in Lower Normandy. This region was repopulated by massive immigration of insular Britons in the 5th century due to pressure from the invading Anglo-Saxons. However, it is possible that L21 was present in Armorica since the Bronze age or the Iron age given that the tribes of the Armorican Confederation of ancient Gaul already had a distinct identity from the other Gauls and had maintained close ties with the British Isles at least since the Atlantic Bronze Age.

    This branch makes up about 50% of the English population

    So if you really want to argue genetics then according to geneticists England is roughly 50% Germanic 50% and 50% Celtic.

    • Doughty says:

      Sorry I meant 50% Germanic and 50% Celtic, leaning more towards the Celtic side, but the Germanic culture predominated which is why we are all speaking English.

      • Does anybody in Germany speak English as a native tongue? No. Why? Because it is a language so far removed from its ancient proto Germanic routes, it isnt even identifiable as a Germanic language today. English may have its roots in that family, but so does the Franco tongue. And that has no relation to modern day German at all! English is (i am sick of repeating this!) a basterdisation of a form of ancient tongue spoken by many groups of proto Germanic and Scandinavian languages. It is the amalgamation of many tongues from many parts of Europe later incorporated into Norman, Frisian and Dane (remember the Dane law!) languages. We dont speak English because of Germans, we speak English because of many languages and mutations over many many millenia. English and German are barely related.

      • Doughty says:

        You do realize that there are different Germanic languages that are unintelligible between countries. Here is a map of Europe’s Germanic languages. Notice that English is part of this map. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Germanic_Languages.PNG

      • John William Owens says:

        Doughty, I am more inclined to agree with you based on your information provided and Germanic influence is more dominant than other smaller influences such as the Normans, and the Danes. However, Archie does point that his information provided details into the Normans, Danes and several other groups as well and I cannot argue with such information since it is plausible. (be the win, I’m more likely to be a descendent of a Norman soldier who served under the command of William the conqueror.) De Bray surname evolved into Bray surname many years after the Norman conquest of England.

      • There are MANY place names in England which are directly related to their ancestral Celtic or Brythonic origins. In fact any place name north of Wolverhampton has most likely Celtic or Norse origin. As for surnames, ignorance is bliss! Please research British surnames! As for the Saxon dominance, Romano Celts actually invited Saxon mercenaries to England to help stop the continual raids of Picts and Scotii from the North. The Romano Celts actually lived in peace with Angle Saxons allowing them to settle what is now East Anglia paying them with land. But for whatever reason, what ever happened on the continent to cause the steady influx of Germanic tribes to Britain, the two ethnic groups held many battles with wins and losses on equal sides. Those Romano Celts who decided to stay in England were assimilated, there is no evidence to prove they were either anihalated, brought into slavery or pushed to the brink of existence. The tribes of Celts who already occupied Wales, Cornwall Cumbria and lowland Scotland remained there, the terrain protecting those insular cultures from hybridising with the invaders. Not until Vikings from Scandinavia invaded the north and pushed back Saxon advancement did the Romano descended Celts come under fierce competition both culturally and physically to another race. And in the battle of 1066 which saw the demise of the Saxon king Harold to the Norman King William, Saxons themselves saw radical changes to their culture and hierarchy and staus within these islands. Wave after wave of Norman and Viking raids and settlements saw the biggest cultural shift in these islands since the Romans assimilated the native Britons. Saxons may have left a cultural and genetic legacy, but so did the others who raided, fought and settled these lands. From the Roman settlement of Wroxeter in Shropshire to the Viking settlement of York! Many places have heritage in England that is not of Saxon descent, others left their mark which represent the patchwork cultures of the islands! Also Proven in our DNA, 50% Celt and 40% Fresian! The remaining are recond to be Scandinavian and Romano from the era of Romano Celts taking land, business and partnerships together. This is well documented. And well taught! England may have a name which means land of the Angle, but their make up is far from pure Angle (50%). As for the culture, what is Anglo Saxon culture anyway?! Many of our cities and towns were founded by either Celts or Romans which became Anglicised under Saxon Rule. Our Laws are based on Common Law, our society based on Romano like many of those across Europe where Roman dominance dictated for millennia! The Saxons represent a percentage of the time and influence! Scotland is named after the Scotii, a certain tribe which was never dominant! A name means nothing. Devon is the Anglicised name for Devonia the Celtic name… They can swap and change meaning. Wolverhampton was previously known as Wulfrenhampton, pure Saxon, however Penrith 100 miles north in Cumbria (Cymbri) is pure Celtic in origin. The name places in England retain 50/50 of Saxon and Celt origin. You jyst have to get past the Anglicisation of their spelling and pronounciation.

      • John William Owens says:

        (This is a response to Archie on No. 4 below and I say this to not confuse the situation.) Archie, I’m not in any position to debate with you and I believe your information provided is plausible, accurate and acceptable. I think that you have a valid point and the information provided by you shouldn’t be dismissed at all. However, I am looking forward to more of your valid points and keep in mind, I just finished Fall Semester 2014 at Victor Valley College.

      • This is an article in the 2013 Oxford Press; my brother was actually involved in this study which is what ultimatley brought my attention to my heritage and what happened to the ancient Britons. To quote the article “they were not anihalated by the waves on oncoming saxon newcomers, they were intermingled, assimilated and married”. The ancient British Gene actually has a bigger representation across all of the UK than the Saxon gene.


        I rest my case. The British are still very much British with closer genetic links to those from France and Belgium. In England up to the midlands, mainly Saxon but the DNA of an ancient British lineage was still present! In everyone sampled! Even in Anglo Saxon hotspots such as Kent! Proof that our heritage and lineage is an amalgmation of ALL invading cultures! Even after 3000 years the the ancient Britons who numbered some 2 million, were never wipedout, at all but merely coaxed and in some cases, forced into a new way of living at a time when they were culturally bereft of Romano leadership for the first time in decades! My brother who was part of this study has both Celt, Frisian and evidence of Scandinavian lineage. Mainly as an older ancestor as far as we could trace came from Scandinavia. The Saxon came from my mother who was born in the West Midlands along with her mother. My father from Oban in western Scotland. I represent the true make up of this country, and celebrate all the distinct ancient tribes who settled these islands and would eventually go on to become one of the most powerful and influential nations the world has ever seen, spreading their mixed genetics and culture far and wide.

      • John William Owens says:

        Your information sounds very credible and plausible, but I am avoiding an argument with Archie and you because it will be quite mess in the end. Anyways, I am watching the differing opinions between you and Archie since I don’t usually become involved in such complex debate and wish to learn the deep understanding of a long lost culture.

      • John William Owens says:

        Archie, the article link provided proved to be the most compelling argument for your position and although I don’t intend to debate you, you did elaborate on the smaller details in such academic form. Lastly, the article link was excellent and full of strong factual information in regards to the modern day British or English peoples. ( I was confused with the comment posting and the post above this post isn’t intended in the first place.)

    • Which is exactly the point i was trying to make, but since you copied and pasted the very research document (wikipedia version i think you took) you saved me from gaving to re iterate myself yet again! Somebody esrlier posted a useless newspaper article of German origin which bizarrely suggested that the native Britons after Roman rule were either driven out by invading Germanic tribes or prevented from breeding by enslavement! Statistically not possible as even with expanding ground covered, the angle saxons never penetrated further than south Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, Highland Scotland or indeed Wales. The 3 million or so celts left after Roman rule may have been pushed to the peripheries but those whom remained, managed to ensure their presence is felt enough today to equate a 50% heritage of the over all 70 million strong population of the UK. That is amazing considering the wave upon wave of invaders from Europe over the centuries.

      My point at the end of the day was never to disprove Angle Saxon presence or DNA but to prove their culture and make up in the English population was not and never could be the dominant force. Its their alright, but so are many others! And that is something which is written in many a genetic study. The English are made up of many cultural and biological factors. How could it be any different?! Look at the evidence!

      • Doughty says:

        But it was the Germanic language, culture, and people that created England without them there would be no England. England literally means the land of the Angles, again referring to all the Germanic groups. It would be some other Romano Celtic entity if they never arrived, instead it is English because of the Germanic tribes that imposed there will and government on the native population. England is Germanic because of this dominance, then the Normans came and added the Latin element. But again England would not exist today if it wasn’t for the Germanic tribes. You would not be speaking English and your culture would be much different. They may have only contributed 40% of your DNA, but even the days of the week come from the Germanic gods. Tyrs day Woden day Thors day and Freyas day. I’m sorry but many BRITISH historians disagree with you on this one, not just myself. You are taking that new age Francis Pryor approach to this topic, and I and many historians think you are wrong.

    • John William Owens says:

      Archie, the article link provided proved to be the most compelling argument for your position and although I don’t intend to debate you, you did elaborate on the smaller details in such academic form. Lastly, the article link was excellent and full of strong factual information in regards to the modern day British or English peoples.

  123. Doughty says:

    I’m not argue that the ethnic Celtic component isn’t there, but you are ignoring the Germanic component. I don’t know where you’re getting your information on DNA, but if it comes from Brian Sykes or David Oppenheimer’s books that were written almost 10 years ago, geneticists have come along way and have broken down the more intricate details of the genetic makeup of the British Isles. The eastern half of Britain has a strong Germanic component while the western half is more Celtic.

      • Doughty says:

        This will be my final post regarding anything Germanic. You can either look at the evidence or ignore that is up to you, but the Germanic DNA is overall around 40% of English genetics. And in the eastern portions of England like East Anglia it is upwards of 90%.

      • I find that quite funny, Anglia being 90% more Germanic, well thats not exactly a shock goven its the most sparsley populated area in England! And as i pointed out the further west you travel the less likey you are to encounter the more Saxon gene! England has a population of 58 million, East Anglia and surrounding counties about 8 million! Do the maths! Its not hard to predict that 40% of the rest of England is a pretty small representation of the Saxon gene on the population of England as a whole! The other 60% being from other ethnic groups, as i pointed out! Nobody was denying their presence in the gene pool, but to focus on one group as an over all dominant cultural and genetic presence is ludicrous and off the mark totally. As that and many other dtudies prove, the overall average English DNA consists of a melting pot of roughly equal DNA! The population of East Anglia (one of the smallest in England!!) will naturally be higher! Move west or north toward Cornwall and Cumbria and the Saxon gene diminishes significantly! Replaced by Celtic, Viking and Nordic DNA. Given the pilgrim fathers set out from Scrooby in Notts, they would have carried mixed Nordic and Germanic DNA.

        England does not carry a dominant Saxon gene. It never has and never will because the Saxons were not the over all dominant race, they were one of many spanning thousands of years.

  124. Doughty says:

    I never said there was a Saxon gene, but a Germanic gene. The term Anglo Saxon is used to describe the Germanic groups that immigrated prior to the Vikings, but I’m sure you already knew that. This Germanic gene is made up of Anglo-Saxons, Frisians, and Jutes as well as many others. 40% is nothing to sneeze at, but you are ignoring nearly half of the genetic makeup of England. Scotland also has it so the fact that you call them Celtic is a bit biased. Especially since most lowlanders carry this gene, speak a Germanic language, and have Germanic surnames like Graham, Armstrong, Livingstone, Stewart, etc etc..

  125. Doughty says:

    Hello John William Owens
    I also have direct Norman ancestors, but most of the Normans were genetically Germanic as well. They had just lived in France long enough to speak French rather than their Norse languages. Norman literally means north men as in the Vikings. Archie essentially is arguing that because there were other groups in England that it is not Germanic. Even if England was 100% Celtic in DNA (in reality it is 50% Germanic 50% Celtic) it would still be a Germanic country based on culture, language, and the vast amount of place names throughout England. There are very few Celtic surnames or place names in England. He is denying England’s founding fathers so to speak. This is similar to the way many Americans have erased their founding culture which is English. The Germanic groups dominated the Romano British groups, and then inter-bred with them, but it was the Germanic culture that won out in the end.

    • John William Owens says:

      Your information sounds very credible and plausible, but I am avoiding an argument with Archie and you because it will be quite mess in the end. Anyways, I am watching the differing opinions between you and Archie since I don’t usually become involved in such complex debate and wish to learn the deep understanding of a long lost culture.

      • John William Owens says:

        (The previous post is confusing and wasn’t intended for this post here.) Anyways, the strong Germanic culture is most likely to be an explanation for such perspective and your cultural analysis is close enough for the reality of the situation.

  126. Doughty says:

    You know there is also a theory which is not exactly credible at this point that the Germanic element has been England just as long as the Celtic one, and that they had been there all along. Again I’m not sure about it but it is interesting to speculate on. Here is a link. http://www.proto-english.org/e10.html

    • Doughty says:

      “The modern English language has taken strikingly little vocabulary or grammar from Celtic roots – far less, for example, than it has taken from Vikings, Indians, Australians, or Amerindians. Nevertheless, many people (and encyclopaedia entries and tourist brochures) still doggedly assert that in Roman times Kentish people generally spoke a Brythonic language. Their motives include prudent conservatism, romantic Celtic (and French) nationalism, and respect for the patient labours of generations of scholars.”

      “Genetic evidence suggests that the Celtic/Germanic divide in the British population long pre-dates the Roman invasion (Oppenheimer, 2006). After the last ice age, founder populations arrived by two distinct, main routes: one up the western seaboard of the British Isles, the other down the Rhine and across the North Sea. In general, populations grow far more by natural increase than by migration. For early people, rivers and seas were highways rather than frontiers. However, one must remember that languages move with military and technological power as well as by accompanying the genes in human bodies.”

      • Doughty says:

        There are considerably more Germanic topographic names in England than Celtic.
        “Old English derived names form the majority of place names in England, as well as a substantial number in Lowland Scotland, and some in Wales.”
        External Influences on English: From Its Beginnings to the Renaissance
        By D. Gary Miller

  127. Doughty says:

    There also plenty of German place names in America, but the English place names way outnumber the the German ones in America. Does that mean that the Germans helped shape American culture Archie?

    • Doughty says:

      Or for that matter a large percent of place names and state names in America are Indian. Does that mean that the Indians contributed as much culturally to America as the English did?

      • Doughty says:

        “Whatever the cause, due to this linguistic (if not cultural) replacement, most place names in modern England are discernibly Anglo-Saxon. A large fraction of these contain personal names, suggesting that they were named after the first Anglo-Saxon to dwell there.”

        Thomas MG, Stumpf MP, Härke H. Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England. Proc Biol Sci. 2006 Oct 22;273(1601):2651-7.

  128. Doughty says:

    Ignorance is bliss, but fortunately I am not ignorant in this regard and neither are many English historians.

    “The substratum of English surnames is Anglo-Saxon.”
    English Surnames: And Their Place in the Teutonic Family
    By Robert Ferguson

    “The legacy of the Anglo-Saxons is one that encompasses all facets of life, and their contributions should not be underestimated.”

    – See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/dianne-ebertt-beeaff/aelfraed-and-haranfot-anglo-saxon-personal-names#sthash.xqwkMulC.dpuf

    • John William Owens says:

      The article link which you have referenced did an superb job of explaining what happened to the previous culture before and after the Norman conquest of 1066. However, the wulf surname reminds me of the story called Beowulf which I read and understood the culture when the story was taking place while I was taking college courses in Fall Semester 2014 Victor Valley College.

  129. Doughty says:

    Hello John
    Just remember that the Normans did change a lot in regards to English politics and some of the language, but they did very little to change the underlying Anglo Saxon culture of the common folk. However, in every day spoken English words of Germanic origin still predominate. The Largest number of Teutonic words are Anglo-Saxon in origin followed by Scandinavian then by Dutch and German. Low German has contributed more loanwords to English than High German.
    We could talk about England’s Romano Celtic past and DNA all day, but the bottom line is that the English are Germanic in culture and language. Most linguist, historians, and anthropologist agree that the English are a mix but are ultimately Germanic.

    Almost every country in Europe has some sort of mix of cultures, but there is always one that predominates. France is considered a Latin/Romance country even though the Frankish Germanic tribes ruled for a very long time. The reason is simple, they speak a romance language that evolved from vulgar Latin and their culture remained Latin in origin in spite of the Frankish influence. The Frankish rulers eventually intermarried with the locals and started speaking French. They do in fact have the most Germanic influence of all the romance languages, but they are still Latin. The same could be said about the English just in reverse. The French are Latin with a Germanic twist while the English are Germanic with a Latin twist.

    Archie refuses to believe that England is Germanic but is quick to say that Scotland is Celtic. Even though Scotland also has had a mix of Germanic, Celtic, and Latin influence. This is why I sense a bias on his part. Spain was also ruled by a Germanic tribe known as the Goths, but the Spanish are not Germanic. In spite of the fact that names like Edwardo and Ricardo are actually Germanic names meaning Edward and Richard. There are also other Germanic element in the Spanish language but the Spanish are Latin. Archie is trying to take away England’s founding culture which is Germanic. I just don’t buy his argument.

    • John William Owens says:

      I’m beginning to see a pattern in English culture itself and at the same time, I’m avoiding a debate with Archie, but respect his argument otherwise. By the way, I’m retaking History 117 to 1876 college course next semester and will use this as an opportunity to relearn past preAmerican and American history dating upward to 1876

      • Doughty says:

        That is my favorite period in American history! Our country started to loss a lot of its culture after the 1960s when the liberal Jewish American Emanuel Celler implemented the Hart-Celler act. Which essentially opened the flood gates to 3rd world immigration in America. Prior to this time America only allowed European immigrants into the country and they were forced to assimilate into the Anglo culture, non of this multicultural crap happening today.

        Archie has also bad mouthed the Germans extensively on this forum, but the Germans were much more willing to to assimilate into Anglo American culture than say the Irish or Italians. And it is because most Germans and English in America were protestants, shared a somewhat similar culture regardless what some may think. Germans that came to America with names such as Pförtner, Müller, and Schmidt, quickly changed their names to Porter, Miller and Smith, and eventually blended into American culture. Many Germans also fought in the American revolution to help us win our independence. Other catholic groups like the Irish and Italians have tended to refuse to become fully American. My fiance’s surname is Wise which was originally Weiss, but they wanted to change their name to become more American.

        Have fun with the class, ask a ton of questions in regards to how American culture was created, and don’t fall for the multicultural tripe that many professor are pushing on college students. Also I highly recommend you buy this book. It explains how America became an Anglo culture. It covers the four major waves of British immigration into America. From the Puritans who created the liberal New England, to the tolerant Quakers who allowed many of the Germans to settle in their territory of Pennsylvania, to the wealthy Cavaliers who created the slave society that eventually arose, and finally the Ulster Scots who created the so called hillbilly culture in the Appalachians.

      • John William Owens says:

        Better yet, I will even reference any information from the assigned History 117 textbook onto this forum if there are many examples of English culture subtly less influential or more influential. Besides this, I’ll keep you informed otherwise on the reaction and answers from my encounters on the relevant subject matter.

    • John William Owens says:

      When I was taking English 102 last semester, I was covertly p5s55d off at Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, Shakespeare’s The Tempest and Angela Carter’s revised storytelling of older fairytales called The Bloody Chamber all because they are basically overrated pieces of work and I didn’t care about it. However, I had less tolerance for Hansel and Gretel, Sleeping Beauty and Dana Goia’s Nosferatu due to the cultural significance at the time. Worst yet, I found out that Mary Shelley was an early nineteenth century British feminist and this is the reason why I hated Frankenstein.

      • Doughty says:

        Many of the Grimm fairy tales are fantastic! Little Red Riding Hood, Sleeping Beauty, Rumpelstiltskin, and Snow White just to name a few were originally German, but you are right to be annoyed having to read German stories in an English class.

    • Archie says:

      A United Kingdom? Maybe
      Published: March 6, 2007
      Britain and Ireland are so thoroughly divided in their histories that there is no single word to refer to the inhabitants of both islands. Historians teach that they are mostly descended from different peoples: the Irish from the Celts and the English from the Anglo-Saxons who invaded from northern Europe and drove the Celts to the country’s western and northern fringes.

      But geneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The implication that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh have a great deal in common with each other, at least from the geneticist’s point of view, seems likely to please no one. The genetic evidence is still under development, however, and because only very rough dates can be derived from it, it is hard to weave evidence from DNA, archaeology, history and linguistics into a coherent picture of British and Irish origins.

      That has not stopped the attempt. Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical geneticist at the University of Oxford, says the historians’ account is wrong in almost every detail. In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.

      The British Isles were unpopulated then, wiped clean of people by glaciers that had smothered northern Europe for about 4,000 years and forced the former inhabitants into southern refuges in Spain and Italy. When the climate warmed and the glaciers retreated, people moved back north. The new arrivals in the British Isles would have found an empty territory, which they could have reached just by walking along the Atlantic coastline, since the English Channel and the Irish Sea were still land.

      This new population, who lived by hunting and gathering, survived a sharp cold spell called the Younger Dryas that lasted from 12,300 to 11,000 years ago. Much later, some 6,000 years ago, agriculture finally reached the British Isles from its birthplace in the Near East. Agriculture may have been introduced by people speaking Celtic, in Dr. Oppenheimer’s view. Although the Celtic immigrants may have been few in number, they spread their farming techniques and their language throughout Ireland and the western coast of Britain. Later immigrants arrived from northern Europe had more influence on the eastern and southern coasts. They too spread their language, a branch of German, but these invaders’ numbers were also small compared with the local population.

      In all, about three-quarters of the ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, when rising sea levels split Britain and Ireland from the Continent and from each other, Dr. Oppenheimer calculates in a new book, ”The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story” (Carroll & Graf, 2006).

      Ireland received the fewest of the subsequent invaders; their DNA makes up about 12 percent of the Irish gene pool, Dr. Oppenheimer estimates. DNA from invaders accounts for 20 percent of the gene pool in Wales, 30 percent in Scotland, and about a third in eastern and southern England.

      But no single group of invaders is responsible for more than 5 percent of the current gene pool, Dr. Oppenheimer says on the basis of genetic data. He cites figures from the archaeologist Heinrich Haerke that the Anglo-Saxon invasions that began in the fourth century A.D. added about 250,000 people to a British population of one to two million, an estimate that Dr. Oppenheimer notes is larger than his but considerably less than the substantial replacement of the English population assumed by others. The Norman invasion of 1066 brought not many more than 10,000 people, according to Dr. Haerke.

      Other geneticists say Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction is plausible, though some disagree with details. Several said genetic methods did not give precise enough dates to be confident of certain aspects, like when the first settlers arrived.

      ”Once you have an established population, it is quite difficult to change it very radically,” said Daniel G. Bradley, a geneticist at Trinity College, Dublin. But he said he was ”quite agnostic” as to whether the original population became established in Britain and Ireland immediately after the glaciers retreated 16,000 years ago, as Dr. Oppenheimer argues, or more recently, in the Neolithic Age, which began 10,000 years ago.

      Bryan Sykes, another Oxford geneticist, said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer that the ancestors of ”by far the majority of people” were present in the British Isles before the Roman conquest of A.D. 43. ”The Saxons, Vikings and Normans had a minor effect, and much less than some of the medieval historical texts would indicate,” he said. His conclusions, based on his own genetic survey and information in his genealogical testing service, Oxford Ancestors, are reported in his new book, ”Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland.”

      A different view of the Anglo-Saxon invasions has been developed by Mark Thomas of University College, London. Dr. Thomas and colleagues say the invaders wiped out substantial numbers of the indigenous population, replacing 50 percent to 100 percent of those in central England. Their argument is that the Y chromosomes of English men seem identical to those of people in Norway and the Friesland area of the Netherlands, two regions from which the invaders may have originated.

      Dr. Oppenheimer disputes this, saying the similarity between the English and northern European Y chromosomes arises because both regions were repopulated by people from the Iberian refuges after the glaciers retreated.

      Dr. Sykes said he agreed with Dr. Oppenheimer on this point, but another geneticist, Christopher Tyler-Smith of the Sanger Centre near Cambridge, said the jury was still out. ”There is not yet a consensus view among geneticists, so the genetic story may well change,” he said. As to the identity of the first postglacial settlers, Dr. Tyler-Smith said he ”would favor a Neolithic origin for the Y chromosomes, although the evidence is still quite sketchy.”

      Dr. Oppenheimer’s population history of the British Isles relies not only on genetic data but also on the dating of language changes by methods developed by geneticists. These are not generally accepted by historical linguists, who long ago developed but largely rejected a dating method known as glottochronology. Geneticists have recently plunged into the field, arguing that linguists have been too pessimistic and that advanced statistical methods developed for dating genes can also be applied to languages.

      Dr. Oppenheimer has relied on work by Peter Forster, a geneticist at Anglia Ruskin University, to argue that Celtic is a much more ancient language than supposed, and that Celtic speakers could have brought knowledge of agriculture to Ireland, where it first appeared. He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion.

      English is usually assumed to have developed in England, from the language of the Angles and Saxons, about 1,500 years ago. But Dr. Forster argues that the Angles and the Saxons were both really Viking peoples who began raiding Britain ahead of the accepted historical schedule. They did not bring their language to England because English, in his view, was already spoken there, probably introduced before the arrival of the Romans by tribes such as the Belgae, whom Caesar describes as being present on both sides of the Channel.

      The Belgae perhaps introduced some socially transforming technique, such as iron-working, which led to their language replacing that of the indigenous inhabitants, but Dr. Forster said he had not yet identified any specific innovation from the archaeological record.

      Germanic is usually assumed to have split into three branches: West Germanic, which includes German and Dutch; East Germanic, the language of the Goths and Vandals; and North Germanic, consisting of the Scandinavian languages. Dr. Forster’s analysis shows English is not an offshoot of West Germanic, as usually assumed, but is a branch independent of the other three, which also implies a greater antiquity. Germanic split into its four branches some 2,000 to 6,000 years ago, Dr. Forster estimates.

      Historians have usually assumed that Celtic was spoken throughout Britain when the Romans arrived. But Dr. Oppenheimer argues that the absence of Celtic place names in England — words for places are particularly durable — makes this unlikely.

      If the people of the British Isles hold most of their genetic heritage in common, with their differences consisting only of a regional flavoring of Celtic in the west and of northern European in the east, might that perception draw them together? Geneticists see little prospect that their findings will reduce cultural and political differences. The Celtic cultural myth ”is very entrenched and has a lot to do with the Scottish, Welsh and Irish identity; their main identifying feature is that they are not English,” said Dr. Sykes, an Englishman who has traced his Y chromosome and surname to an ancestor who lived in the village of Flockton in Yorkshire in 1286.

      Dr. Oppenheimer said genes ”have no bearing on cultural history.” There is no significant genetic difference between the people of Northern Ireland, yet they have been fighting with each other for 400 years, he said.

      As for his thesis that the British and Irish are genetically much alike, ”It would be wonderful if it improved relations, but I somehow think it won’t.”
      Drawing (Drawing by Tim Bower)(pg. F1)

      Chart: ”1066 and All That”
      Based on genetic evidence, Stephen Oppenheimer, a geneticist at the University of Oxford, argues that the British and the Irish share most of their ancestors.

      About 20,000 years ago Glaciers force former inhabitants of the British Isles into southern refuges like Spain.

      1. 15,000 years ago
      After the glaciers retreat, people — huntergatherers possibly speaking a language related to Basque — arrive from Spain by walking along the Atlantic coastline. (The English Channel and the Irish Sea are still land.)

      12,300 to 11,500 years ago
      The first settlers survive another glacial spell, called the Younger Dryas.

      10,000 and 8,500 years ago
      Britain and Ireland split away from each other and from the continent.

      75% of British and Irish ancestors arrive between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago

      Map tracking Where British and Irish genes come from.

      1. Northern Iberian people (principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations)
      2. Farmers from the eastern Mediterranean
      3. Anglo-Saxons

      No individual group of later invaders — including Celts or Anglo-Saxons — contributes much more than 5 percent to the modern gene pool.

      2. 6,000 years ago
      Agriculture is introduced, possibly by people speaking Celtic. Farming techniques and language spread throughout Ireland and the west coast of Britain.

      6,000 to 4,000 years ago
      Immigrant farmers from northern Europe influence the eastern and southern coast.

      1,950 years ago
      Romans invade Britain. A form of English — not Celtic — may already be spoken in parts of southern England.

      3. 1,550 years ago
      Anglo-Saxon invasions begin, adding a much smaller number of people to the population than is commonly believed.

      950 years ago
      Norman invaders probably account for no more than 5 percent of the population.

      (Source by Stephen Oppenheimer, ”The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story”)(pg. F4)

  130. mpbaz says:

    Doughty we do not have an official dress other than the Morris dress and you know about that, not sure why but I think it’s down to size, if you look at size and pop of Scotland and Wales they are much smaller than eng’ll and and both have national dress ..The English have always let their actions speak for themselves the smaller nations that were do m inflated by England on the other hand had to find ways of keeping their culture alive this was one way..The English never had to worry about this..so makes sense as to why they promoted their dress.

    • Another thing to understand about national dress is that it is really one of many regional folk clothing fashions, not a national costume, for example, Lederhosen is a southern German alpine fashion.

  131. National dress is invariably the dress of the poor.

    • Doughty says:

      Hello Robert
      Why do you say that? There seems to be plenty of middle class or wealthy Bavarians that wear Lederhosen.

      • I say because its true. Once it is adopted as a national costume then it becomes just that, but its origins are as the uniform of the poor and the rural poor at that. England is exceptional; in this as in so many other things in that it was never really tribal in the sense that for example Scotland, Wales and Ireland were – Bede was writing of the English as a people circa 700 AD – and the English kingdoms were unified into England by 1100 at the latest. In addition, modernity started in England with the Industrial Revolution. That meant there was a rapid movement from the country to the town so that a national dress based on the rural poor (which would probably have been the smock) had little chance to be adopted.

        It is also worth noting that national dress can also be a fraud in the sense that it is manufactured at least in par.. This is what happened with Scottish emblems such as the kilt and the clan tartans which only became part of Scottishness after Sir Walter Scott stage managed George IV’s visit to Scotland and promoted both as quintessentially Scotch.

      • Doughty says:

        I definitely agree with you on the manufactured part. The kilt was a highland thing, but now all of Scotland uses it as a symbol. Even in the lowlands were it has zero history there. At the same time though I believe that folk dress is a good thing allowing a culture to separate itself from modernity and show some national pride. How do feel about national instruments and folk music? As a musician I think holding onto traditional folk music is essential for a countries identity. I am in an Old time/Bluegrass band and think it is vital for countries to hold onto their musical traditions. Unfortunately again it seems that England doesn’t seem to have this folk music tradition to the same extent as say the Irish, Germans, or Americans. I know that there is traditional English folk music, but it very hard to find people that appreciate it in the same way that the Irish do. When I was England I desperately wanted to find a traditional English folk session but unfortunately I was unable to. The only sessions I could find were all Irish or Scottish.

  132. Doughty – About a mile from me is Cecil Sharp House in Camden Town, London. If you visit England again go there and you will find a mine of information about English folk singing, past and present. The contemporary English folk scene is also strong and growing stronger, see




    • Doughty says:

      Thanks for the links and the info on the Cecil Sharp house which I will definitely check out the next time I’m in England. I unfortunately missed a lot of great stuff on my first trip because of time constraints. I really wanted to go to the Templar church in London and see William Marshals resting place, but the day I had planned to visit they were closed. That was the biggest disappointment of my trip.

      Do you think that industrialization also led to the decline in English folk music? My band plays quite a few English folk tunes, Blue eyed stranger, Seven Stars, Haul Away, Old Maui, and many more. I don’t know if you like, or are interested in English folk music, but the duo known as Spiers and Boden as well as Kate Rusby are great.

      I recall reading not too long ago that Cecil Sharp came to America in the early 20th century to document some of the traditional Appalachian folk songs, and found that we were still singing songs that the English no longer played or sung. After all our Old time music comes from the English and Ulster Scots.

      “Chance brought me to America in the early days of the war … and while here Mrs John C Campbell of Asheville, NC told me that the inhabitants of the Southern Appalachians were still singing the traditional songs and ballads which their English and Scottish ancestors had brought out with them at the time of their emigration.”

      • Industrialisation had its effect because folk singing in the traditional sense tends to be the product of close knit communities handing down songs which were never written down. The diverse communities of towns and cities destroy this,. Urbanisation is one of the major consequences of industrialisation so it had a serious effect on traditional folk singing., as did the ever growing reach of recorded music and other entertainment and the ease of movement brought by first the railways then cars and planes.

        But the influence of English folk is written all over popular music today because the ballad form is still dominant and the ballad is the quintessential English folk form. Country and Western is essentially the English story song.

      • Doughty says:

        Good to know, industrialization also had its effect on American folk/country music. I find most popular music today is absolute garbage. In American music I would say that the Ulster Scots contributed just as much to our country music as the English. Country music in America really began in the Appalachian mountains which was heavily settled by the Ulster Scots. But in all fairness the Ulster Scots also came from an Anglo protestant culture. Even the Scots language has its roots in Old English.

        Also in America we no longer call it Country Western it’s just country. We dropped the Western part a long time ago. I recall a few years ago watching a television series known as globe trekker, and the host was Ian Wright who was English. While he was in Nashville and wanted to talk to some of the country singers and every time he would say country-western everybody would laugh and tell them how old and outdated that term had become. It seems the English still use the term though.

  133. Doughty – there will be an element of other inputs than the English into US country music but the form of country is very similar to the street ballads which right up until the early 20th century were immensely popular here. Music Hall was hugely influenced by the form. See

    The Rise of the English Street Ballad 1550–1650



    XVI. The Advent of Modern Thought in Popular Literature.

    § 10. The street ballad and other forms of popular literature.

  134. Doughty says:

    I’m just glad that this generation is really trying to revive the folk songs of the past. Whether they are English or Ulster Scots these folk music traditions must not disappear. Otherwise we’re left with the pop trash that is dominant today.

  135. John William Owens says:

    A week or two weeks ago, I was watching a three part documentary series regarding the American Revolutionary War with my dad and my brother, but I became somewhat angry because there may have been some anti-English sentiments at the time. My anger cooled down sometime later and the documentary did a superb job following the beginning and ending of the war from an “American” perspective, however it was merely a misunderstanding and a non compromising situation from the very start.

  136. John William Owens says:

    When I was in high school, I participated in a military youth program called the California Cadet Corps for two years and the organisation was founded by Edwin Alexander Forbes who died in 1915. At the time, I learned some values from the military youth program and my dad used to be a member of the same organisation. Nonetheless, it was quite interesting to find out that not only he was a US Army soldier and veteran, but was also a republican. His ancestry predates all the way back to the British Army and more or less likely to be English American (cannot confirm).

  137. John William Owens says:

    Subject: Could the American Revolutionary War had been prevented?

    (Note: This is a tricky question due to the mystery surrounding the subject matter.)

  138. You mention DNA but a simple test is looks. I am white british, dark brown hair, blue eyes, resemble, Cumbrians, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Lancastrians. I feel very North British. When travelling abroad I meet Dutch, Danes, Germans and they honestly do not resemble me. ( They could be Finnish). Most Brits, and 75% o0f southern English have old British DNA. Saxon DNA is 25% and that is Kent, East Anglia. ( Kent is a Celtic name, as is Thames). Also our humour is sharper, more akin to Irish, and we both love Horse Racing ( a Celtic love)

  139. I’m very saddened that America doesn’t recognize its English heritage. I am mostly English, Scottish and Scots-Irish and I am very proud of it! Even if it’s weird, I celebrate St. George’s Day, usually by going to a pub. It may seem strange but I want to be able to have a small connection to my English heritage. Hopefully one day, I will be able to go visit the old country. Great article!

    • mpbaz says:

      Are you US based or UK based..I didn’t think the US had pubs is all? It is sad they are removing their own countries history by not recognising Englands contribution to what made America!

      • JoshSM says:

        I grew up in Santa Monica(California), where lots of Americans are of (relatively recent) English descent, and there are many pubs there.

        The east coast is more pub aware, though.

      • mpbaz says:

        Interesting..I tought the US only had bars not actual pubs..

    • Doughty says:

      I’m also proud of my English heritage, but my family has been in America for over 400 hundred years, and is thoroughly mixed with other northern Europeans, so I like to consider myself ethnically white American. If you think about the Anglo Saxons were living in Britain for roughly the same amount of time before they stopped considering themselves Angles and Saxons and started considering themselves English.

      • Archie says:

        And the celtic tribes who’d been living here for nearly 2000 years before the Anglo Saxons arrived? Sometimes culture can be the driving force not numbers; the saxon culture endured but so did MANY native languages and cultures, the endemic populations were merely assimilated despite the local populations being greater.

  140. Doughty says:

    I have been really promoting Anglo America on my tumblr, and have actually convinced a lot of people that we as Americans are more Anglo than anything else. Of course the Germans and Africans have also added to our culture, but the “America is a multicultural melting pot” is nonsense. Fortunately historians such as David Hacket Fischer and his book Albion Seed have giving my claims much needed validity.

    If any one is interested my tumblr is American-Nativist.


    • pattoms says:

      I have read all these stories about Englishmen and don,t forget the women,who founded the USA,in spite of the Europeans who did try and get it as well,English people have really no need to brag about themselves,as they are quite comfortable being English I am a West Countryman from the West of England.Having gone to Canada as young man and visited the USA I had no problem with any Americans mainly because whenever I spoke to spoke English,this included those who were not of English Heritage so I felt it unecessary to to flaunt it if people want to be something else in spite of what they are then good luck, my Christian name is Irish ,Patrick.I was once asked if I am proud of this name I said no, but I am not ashamed of it either,my Grandfather came from CO Cork,but that does not make me Irish,I am very aware of the outside World who really don,t like us because we founded the Greatest Empire the World has ever known,something ehich is accepted becuase nobody can do anything about this accomplishment,however we do know of other nations who have tried to emulate this but so far have failed.I am quite comfortable and so are a lot of others who still fly the Union Jack.I sympathise with many people who deride us and who are really jealous about something which they cannot change,and who protest in the English Language.

  141. Geordie Mike says:

    That was such an interesting discussion Thank You! I have lots of interesting links to follow.

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